**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/28/04 05:50 PM
Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

Trying to find out if anyone has ran water/alky and what were the results.

How much more boost were you able to run or how well did it reduce your knock counts. Also any pics of the instal or tuning tips would be great.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/28/04 07:36 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

I'm running it or was I should say. It's temporarily disconnected for other reasons.

I ran a super simple system. Tapped the windshield washer reservior, then a simple fuel filter to a 150psi pump and .8mm aquamist nozzle in the TB elbow, triggered by a hobbs switch and a master switch in the cockpit.

No solenoids, no multiple nozzles. Works for me to clear all knock up to 22 psi on the 20g and 91 octane with 272s and magnus intake manifold. Also keeps stuff amazingly clean. Even cleaned up my pistons and valves and evened out my compression. It's good stuff, take the plunge for a daily or often driven on pump gas car.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/28/04 07:40 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

I know it may be oversimplifiying it, but is there anything wrong with using a microswitch that gets activated at WOT rather than a Hobbs switch? I don't see why it would be a drama unless your turbo is ultra laggy. Might run the water out faster though.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/28/04 07:43 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

just so you can set the boost it turns on at. I prefer to not have it come on until 10 psi or later. It's not really needed (via logger info) below that ever.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/28/04 07:48 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

I ran water injection in my old GVR-4 and it worked amazingly well. On the logger you could see the knock drop off the chart when the WI system was activated. I ran a setup very similar to Pivvay's except I had a solenoid in-line. On my newly purchased Laser I'm going to run it again because of the excellent results, but leave out the solenoid for simplicity's sake.

GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
03/28/04 09:19 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

I know Ken has it set up on his car and likes it. I'm pretty sure he has two nozzles. Try a search.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/28/04 09:34 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

Kens the man to talk to about this.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/28/04 09:35 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

My setup is modeled directly after Ken's except I only use 1 nozzle.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/28/04 10:54 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

quote:
Originally posted by Pivvay:
I'm running it or was I should say. It's temporarily disconnected for other reasons.

I ran a super simple system. Tapped the windshield washer reservior, then a simple fuel filter to a 150psi pump and .8mm aquamist nozzle in the TB elbow, triggered by a hobbs switch and a master switch in the cockpit.

No solenoids, no multiple nozzles. Works for me to clear all knock up to 22 psi on the 20g and 91 octane with 272s and magnus intake manifold. Also keeps stuff amazingly clean. Even cleaned up my pistons and valves and evened out my compression. It's good stuff, take the plunge for a daily or often driven on pump gas car.

You say a 150psi pump. WHat pump exactly are you using?

I mostly wanted to run only water/Isopropyl and use a old stock fuel pump form a 2G. Don't know what the dead head pressure to the nozzle would be with that type of pump but I know the 100psi Sure-flow is like 2.3gpm which is like 138gph. Which a stock pump will not do but some people I have talked to are running the 10gph 3178K76 nozzle @ 100psi. Which I know a stock pump should be able to keep up with quite easily. I could even incorporate a type of return valve to bring the pressure down.

Which nozzle exactly are you using? Is it one from Mc Master

Were you running a 50/50 or what? What seemed to work best for you?


ken inn
(BJ Titsengolf lifer)
03/29/04 07:17 AM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

i think a fuel pump will die quickly. fuel pumps use the fuel as a lubricant, and to cool it. and it aint the gph, it's the pressure. the common kits i see have the sf 60 psi pump, which i dont think is adequate. i use aquamist nozzles, they need at least 45psi to mist. add boost to that, and you are over 60 psi. as you increase pressure, the aquamist, or any nozzle, increases output. i use methanol(denatured alcohol) in the winter to stop freezing in the line. the rest of the time is distilled water. i also just go straight pump to nozzle. i used to have a solenoid, but no more. i had a tee splitting to 2 nozzles, but now i just have one right before the t/bdy. others go crazy on this, solenoids, accumulators, variable pressure/output with boost, yada, yada. there are arguments for and against all kinds of nozzle placements. because of the colder temps in the winter, plus the alcohol, there is condensation after the intercooler if you have the nozzle before the intercooler. i had one right after the turbo, too, but have since removed it. i have never seen the mcmaster-carr nozzles. the downside of the aquamist nozzle is it takes a special tap, and it costs 20 bucks. they are very precise, and very tiny. the aquamist pump is one expensive sucker. the sf is less than 100/shipped, and mine has been going strong forever. i did have to get a new diaphragm/valve, because the blue ww fluid ate up the viton, and the deposits in it destroyed my filter. now it's distilled only, no more blue stuff. i mix my own.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 07:26 AM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

http://www.sprayingequipmentsupply.com/pumps/diaphragm-pump.html
PN# 8030-813-239
That's the 150psi pump. You can use the 100psi one, I just tried the 150 psi one as an experiment. Works great but I don't know if it's worth the extra cost.

For aquamist stuff try Brad. He's always been great to me. *Stocks* tons of stuff.
Georges Imports Ltd
>8011 State Line Road
>Kansas City, MO 64114
>816 333 6582
>Email: [email protected]
>Contact: Brad Schaffner

I'm using blue stuff out of shear lazyness. If I have to replace stuff I will but I don't go through that many tanks now that I have the civic for the DD.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 08:48 AM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

Do you have a link to the aquamist nozzles? What size tap do they use?

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 08:54 AM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

m8x0.75 tap. call Brad to buy.

Aquamist website


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 08:59 AM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

Not much info on that site.... [Frown]

What is the flow rate of your nozzle rated at?

I think I might have that size tap.

Do you have any pics of it installed?


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 09:07 AM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

There is a TON of information on that site. CLick the resources page and keep going. There is all the science to back it up etc etc.

Then go to the supplier list page and find the nozzles. Click on the small red thing on the right next to the nozzle. Now you have flow rate info. Magic eh? THere site is a bit of a pain to find stuff, silly brits, but it's all there.

The tap is a super super fine one. I thought I had it since we have like all taps here at work. Guess what? we didn't have it. Taps like ass in thin aluminum too [Frown] Oh well I'm just making a bung for better threads.

As for pictures what do you need to see? I can take pictures of anything but it's super simple. If you can turbo a ggsx you can do this. Just buy the parts, hit the hardware store and radio shack and you'll be up and running in no time. Don't overcomplicate this in your mind. it's EASY.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 09:10 AM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

 -

boy am i nice


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 09:15 AM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

napa part number for the hobbs switch. $27
part # 701-1575


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 09:33 AM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

LOL, thanks for the info.

I just like to map everything out before I start something. Knowing EXACTLY what I am doing usualy saves me tons of head aches when it comes time to do it. And even then stuff creeps up just to piss me off.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 09:38 AM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

 -

now you'll really love me. I take no responsibility if i messed up. it's just a quick paint elec/flow diagram but i think it's right.

Oh ya, throw an LED or 2 in there anywhere you want. I've got one after the switch (main on) and one after the hobbs switch(actually spraying). Blinky lights make it look neeto along with an aircraft style covered switch to make the ricers think you're spraying Nawwzzzzzzzzz instead of water. Heck you could even rig a purge in there to purge water on there car if you add a solenoid in the right place [ROFLMAO] [ROFLMAO] [ROFLMAO] Man i'm goofy today.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 10:29 AM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

I'm pretty clear on wiring and the tank I am going to build. The only thing I am still a little vague on is the nozzle set-up.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 11:00 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

Chris you need a little stick figure guy with thought balloons on your drawing.

I never looked into water injection, so from an idiots standpoint, what would be the total dollar amount you'd end up spending on a system like this?


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 11:21 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

i think you can do it under $200 if you get the 100 psi pump. Definitely not more than $300. Crap for $300 I will build them for people with the 100 psi pump and your choice of nozzle.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 12:18 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

Cool schematic. Looks pretty straightforward. Could you answer an ignorant question though: what is a Hobbs switch?
Mike R.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 12:30 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

hobbs switch = adjustable pressure switch. switch is close until X psi of boost then it opens, wa la! [Big Grin]

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 12:43 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

Most water and/or alchohol injection setups use a fixed pressure pump. This means the motor gets the same amout of water at 14 psi as it does at 25. This can bog the motor just as it's coming into boost. Aquamist and SMC http://www.smcenterprises.com/injector_kit.htm sell variable pressure options. Last year Mike Licht of GM-MAF translator fame was saying that he was working with SMC and would come out with a DSM specific version with the variable rate option. Haven't heard anything about it since.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 12:49 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

blah blah [Smile] ... this is the same theory stuff that pushes solenoids, accumulators etc. A basic system works well and you don't *need* a variable pressure pump to make it run great without bogging. Just set the system to turn on once you need it, not 2psi, and you'll have no bogging issues. Of course you can always spend more money if you want to but it's not necessary. My WI works better than I asked for on the street. At the track I turn it off and run race gas.

curtis
(Space Blanket from NASA plumbed into the attic)
03/29/04 01:28 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

Chris what size nozzle are you spraying with. I have already figured out how to do everything on mine its just the amount per/min I'm wondering about.

Edit I saw you said .8 but with your pump how much does it accually flow in real life. I don't want to hydrolock the engine of screw some shit up. Also what does the nozzle look like is it just a hole or a oval or is it like a small micron screen inside. Also I was thinking of spraying it at around 8 psi.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 02:01 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

It flow "enough", as I've never measured it exactly. I'm sure it flows some what more than the 285cc/min estimated by the aquamist chart at 7 bar since my pressure is higher. I bought a .6mm and tried that first. Went up to a .8mm with no issues. I could go bigger or add multiple nozzles but it's surpressing knock and I get zero bogging so i'm happy without playing around anymore. You won't hydrolock your engine unless you're a complete idiot which I doubt any of you are. It's spraying a fine fine mist at any significant pressure. Hook everything up but putting the nozzle in the piping and turn the system on. You'll like the mist you see and be amazed at the flow.

I chose the big pump because I figure the pump has 20psi swings when "cycling" and it's seeing 20psi in my piping. So I'm seeing pressure of at least 110psi minimum I'm guessing. But a 100 psi pump is just fine, just don't get the 60.

Edit: You're shooting for 20-25% water to fuel ratio (remember injectors x 4 @ *100%* DC is your fuel flow). So you have to fudge around a bit as I'm not really at full capacity of the 660s *most* of the time. Plus the psycrometric chart isn't fun for most to read so no one does. It's all a big range anyway, you're shooting for knock supression not exact flows. Still get knock? up the jet size. Getting bogging? Raise the start pressure or go down a jet size. But .6-.8mm is probably a good range for most people who actually *need* the knock supression on pump gas.


a_santos
(Brasileiro Turbinado)
03/29/04 02:24 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

I am also planning on getting water injection in the future. Here is what I was thinking I would like to do. Is it possible to hook up two hobes switches, and run 2 nozzles. One a small nozzle, .6 or smaller, and another nozzle, maybe the same zise or larger. One hobes switch for each nozzle, but one of the nozzles only comes on at full boost, while the other comes on at early boost, lets say 6psi. That way you would not have any bogging issues, but would have enough water to cool the charge and suppress knock. I also think that the amount of water would be better matched to the airflow.

Sort of like having two banks of injectors.

What do you guys think? Will it work?


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 02:28 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

It will work fine but you'll have to have a solenoid to have them come on at 2 different pressures. Just try a setup like I've drawn out for you. You can always add another nozzle later but I bet you will find you don't need it. KISS.

14bCrazy
(turdpolisher)
03/29/04 05:32 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

quote:
i use methanol(denatured alcohol) in the winter to stop freezing in the line.
I thought that I read on the Aqua Mist site that you shouldn't use Denatured. I use real Meth. that I get from my local VP dealer. It cheap hell I think for a 55 gallon drum it's less than $150.00.

14bCrazy
(turdpolisher)
03/29/04 05:35 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

quote:
8. How do I prevent the water from freezing in winter?
Use a 20% Methanol/water mixture or use "windscreen additives" that contains Methanol (wood alcohol) or Iso-propanol (rubbing alcohol), check it before purchase. Methanol is better than other forms of alcohol and is totally compatible with Aquamist products. Avoid using Ethanol based additives such as De-natured alcohol or Methylated spirit.


I toke this from the Aqua mist site.

ken inn
(BJ Titsengolf lifer)
03/29/04 10:05 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

i dont use the aquamist pump, the shur flo is fine with denatured, and i only use about 10%. i think the water in the blue stuff is NOT distilled, so it clogged up my filter completly. the aquamist pump is 300+bucks, and they do fail. also, whomever designed the mounting for the pump is an idiot, or a brit, same thing. my shurflo cost me 72 bucks DELIVERED. and, i can get them in a day. but, i have never needed another. accumulators, solenoids, whatever, are not needed. i ran a .6 and a .7 together for years, now only the .6, and i cant tell the difference. when i first installed it, i had it spraying right when it went into boost, and the motor bogged just a tad. the dsm's can take a whole bunch more water. i am ordering a much larger nozzle. oh, and that tap is really wierd. no one is stupid enough to have a tap in that size.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 10:33 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

Lots of good info here. I'm glad I started this thread. [Big Grin]

For $72 I might just go with a Shure-Flo 100psi unit. Where do you get them from?

I am going to try the nozzles from Mc Master since they seem to be working for a few other poeple I have spoken with and they have a simple 1/8"NPT thread so no issues there. I will be sure to let everyone know what size works best.

I really need to get this done when I am done freshening my motor since I got my PDA back today and immeciately went out and logged and am getting around 24-28 counts of knock on 16psi. Even turning it down to 13 only decreased the knock down to 16-20 knock counts. The O2s were staying constant so it wasn't going lean. Might be a bit lean to start, but it wasn't going lean per say.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 10:40 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

mcmaster carr nozzles have to go in from the opposite side. Get the aquamist ones. you won't be sorry you spent the money.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 09:52 AM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

Here is a pic of the McMaster nozzle in a TB elbo.

 -

I might try both and see if there is any difference..


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 11:42 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

That works if you can easily get to the inside to screw it in. Mine is in a non-accessible place so it helps to have the aquamist. Plus it's out of the airflow stream.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 11:56 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

quote:
Originally posted by Pivvay:
hobbs switch = adjustable pressure switch. switch is close until X psi of boost then it opens, wa la! [Big Grin]

Actually, the Hobbs switch works just the opposite: it is OPEN until X boost, and the contacts close, activating the pump or solenoid once you hit the appropriate boost pressure you have dialed in. The Aquamist switch does work the other way.
I'm running the Shurflo 100psi pump, with a 7mm and a 4mm jet. I now am using the Aquamist highspeed solenoid, and have developed an injector driver for it, so it will inject more water as your injector pulsewidth rises. When you do this, you also need to raise your jet sizes, so I have another 7mm to replace the 4mm. Now, if I only had the time to install and test the driver circuit. [Frown]


iceman69510
(Turn Right Racing)
03/30/04 12:29 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

This is like being back in school!

Professor Water Injection, can I use regular gas and get better mileage cheaper too? [Big Grin]


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 12:42 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

hehe good catch Jeff. I actually ordered the wrong hobbs switch the first time since they do come in NO and NC varieties! Ooops. The part number posted should be the right one though.

HertzGalant VR4.org Administrator
(OneTitle to rule them all.)
03/30/04 01:43 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

quote:
Originally posted by keydiver:
I now am using the Aquamist highspeed solenoid, and have developed an injector driver for it, so it will inject more water as your injector pulsewidth rises. When you do this, you also need to raise your jet sizes, so I have another 7mm to replace the 4mm. Now, if I only had the time to install and test the driver circuit. [Frown]

Now that is genious. Industrial-age mods just don't excite me anymore, we need more technology! Let me know if you need a guinnea pig. [Big Grin]

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 04:18 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

quote:
Originally posted by keydiver:
quote:
Originally posted by Pivvay:
hobbs switch = adjustable pressure switch. switch is close until X psi of boost then it opens, wa la! [Big Grin]

Actually, the Hobbs switch works just the opposite: it is OPEN until X boost, and the contacts close, activating the pump or solenoid once you hit the appropriate boost pressure you have dialed in. The Aquamist switch does work the other way.
I'm running the Shurflo 100psi pump, with a 7mm and a 4mm jet. I now am using the Aquamist highspeed solenoid, and have developed an injector driver for it, so it will inject more water as your injector pulsewidth rises. When you do this, you also need to raise your jet sizes, so I have another 7mm to replace the 4mm. Now, if I only had the time to install and test the driver circuit. [Frown]

What's the frequency and current draw on the Aquamist solenoid?

I've got a bunch of LM1942 drivers laying around in a box somewhere. They're not as nice as the NLA Cherry drivers (they need more external parts), but still pretty beefy. I can try and dig one or two and mail 'em to you if you want, Jeff.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 06:22 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

Here is another adjustable pressure switch for your consideration; there are others in its vacinity as well:

$28Dwyer Inst. Pressure Switch

LB


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 09:24 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

this is what i was gonna run:
http://www.4x4racecar.net/water_injection.htm
seems like a good setup to me and cheap.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 09:53 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

quote:
Originally posted by Pivvay:
hehe good catch Jeff. I actually ordered the wrong hobbs switch the first time since they do come in NO and NC varieties! Ooops. The part number posted should be the right one though.

You CAN use either NO or NC, the realay just needs to be wired accordingly.

But the power has to be switached to the pump and relay though. Maybe not the best way to do it....


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 10:52 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

I wanted the normally open one so I could just stick it inline with the switched power feed on the relay. Then at my boost level it would finish the circuit and as long as the master switch was up it would switch the relay and turn on the pump.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 11:51 PM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

quote:
Originally posted by Sledge:
[QUOTE]What's the frequency and current draw on the Aquamist solenoid?

I've got a bunch of LM1942 drivers laying around in a box somewhere. They're not as nice as the NLA Cherry drivers (they need more external parts), but still pretty beefy. I can try and dig one or two and mail 'em to you if you want, Jeff.

Actually, I've already got that part handled, I think. I'm using a P-channel MOSFET driver, but those injector drivers would probably work fine too. The important thing is not to load down the ECU injector output. Plus, I needed a device that would take a low output (ground) and turn on. I'm not sure if those devices work that way. The Aquamist highspeed solenoid is around 12 ohms, so it draws about an amp. It can work well beyond the frequency injectors go to, according to Aquamist.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/31/04 09:54 AM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

quote:
Originally posted by keydiver:
quote:
Originally posted by Sledge:
[QUOTE]What's the frequency and current draw on the Aquamist solenoid?

I've got a bunch of LM1942 drivers laying around in a box somewhere. They're not as nice as the NLA Cherry drivers (they need more external parts), but still pretty beefy. I can try and dig one or two and mail 'em to you if you want, Jeff.

Actually, I've already got that part handled, I think. I'm using a P-channel MOSFET driver, but those injector drivers would probably work fine too. The important thing is not to load down the ECU injector output. Plus, I needed a device that would take a low output (ground) and turn on. I'm not sure if those devices work that way. The Aquamist highspeed solenoid is around 12 ohms, so it draws about an amp. It can work well beyond the frequency injectors go to, according to Aquamist.
So you're going saturated coil, not peak and hold? Make sure you have a good shunt diode. We saw some major back EMF spikes when building driver circuits for some injectors -- I'm talking KV -- when field collapsed. It amazing how much inductance those coil windings can have.

Damn it, I need to get off my butt and finish those EPROM emulator and 3D-mapped WI projects. [Smile]


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/31/04 10:32 AM
Re: Anyone running Water/Alky Injection?

Main link to DIY water/alcohol injection system made by Underdog, Mirage Turbo owner.
http://www.turbomirage.com/water.html

Parts list: http://www.turbomirage.com/water3.html

Install guide:
http://www.turbomirage.com/water4.html

Ok hope this helps! [Wink]



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