Timing belt woes

[alik]

I'll just throw this here, 'cause this seems like a newbie issue.

Replacing the belt after having replaced the head. New belt, tensioner, tensioner & idler pulleys (from STM= streettunedmotorsports.com).
Trying to set the timing, and I always end up half a tooth off on the crank. Borrowed a cam tool from a friend. And, here's the latest scenario.
With the cam tool in place (between the cam gears), both cams are locked. The paper clips are holding the belt to the cams. Running the belt around the idler pulley, crank, and then the tensioner pulley.
With everything set in place, tighten the tensioner pulley, spin the crank 6 times, cams line up perfectly (both with each other and with the top of the head [valve cover is off]). Oil pulley also lines up. Crank is half a tooth off clockwise.
I've even rotated the crank one tooth counter clockwise, locked everything in place, and spun the engine. The alignment is the same; cams line up perfectly (both to each other and to the head), and the crank is off (this time half a tooth counter clockwise).

I've put the effing belt on and off over a dozen times, and I'm losing my mind here.
I've read VFAQ back and forth, and I'm at a loss.

Help, please.

 

[prove_it]

Take pics please. More than likely your timing is right, but since you mentioned the head was replaced I'm guessing it was surfaced. IF so the marks won't be perfect as the distance between cams and crank are slightly closer causing a slight shift in the marks.

Again, post pics so we can see and verify.

 

[alik]

Quoting prove_it:
Take pics please. More than likely your timing is right, but since you mentioned the head was replaced I'm guessing it was surfaced. IF so the marks won't be perfect as the distance between cams and crank are slightly closer causing a slight shift in the marks.

Again, post pics so we can see and verify.



Gladly (the pics), but not right now. I'm too f***ing exhausted after f***ing around with the timing belt all day. And, it's cold. (Yes, this TB is pissing me off).


I don't know if the head had any work done. I picked it up used. (My belt jumped, and since I had this head lying around, I cleaned it up and stuck it on).
The head gasket is a three-layer Mitsu. The studs are ARP, properly tightened to 30,60,90 with "Ultra Torque"

 

[GSTwithPSI]

Quoting prove_it:
Take pics please. More than likely your timing is right, but since you mentioned the head was replaced I'm guessing it was surfaced. IF so the marks won't be perfect as the distance between cams and crank are slightly closer causing a slight shift in the marks.

Again, post pics so we can see and verify.



+1. It likely just appears off if it's only 1/2 a tooth.

 

[alik]

 

[alik]

I marked the back of cam sprockets so I can see easier whether they align with the top of the head.

Also, is the tensioner pulley in the right position?

 

[FlyingEagle]

On your final pic listed above, there is no tension on your timing belt, therefore the pulleys do not qualify for alignment comparisons.

Check out my timing belt thread because there are some good pictures to illustrate the orientation of the tensioner pulley holes; short version - they should be sitting at the 10 and 1 o'clock positions roughly, if you use the clock hand analogy.

Galant VR-4 Forums » Galant VR-4 » Newbies » Timing tool wrong one ???? Installing timing belt 1G 4g63

Maybe you covered this, but what is the reason for a solid tensioner device being installed?
This requires being checked routinely, no? Using an OEM model, you set it and forget it.
OEM only for automatic tension style units.

 

[alik]

Solid tensioner is the reason I'm having this headache. The belt jumped, and I replaced the head with the one I had lying around.

Now, the difference between these pics and the ones above is I realigned the tensioner pulley, installed the hydraulic tensioner, and rotated the crank 6 times. That's it.

 

[prove_it]

Looks like the head is machined and causing your "issue" I think it's fine, but let's see what the masses say.

 

[GSTwithPSI]

Agree. It's fine.

 

[alik]

'Nother words, if I turn the key over, I won't find little pieces of metal in the engine? It's not gonna karbunkle on me?

Effing interference engines...

 

[GSTwithPSI]

Take the plugs out (they already should be) and rotate the motor over SLOWLY by hand. If there's piston to valve contact, you'll feel it. But, at this point you've already rotated the motor over, so what's done is done. The only thing left to do it start the car and run it. You could do a compression and/or leakdown test if you feel fancy.

The timing is right. I've said this before, but you can't actually be off half a tooth. It's a whole tooth, or more. Think about it, the belt can't go on any cog positioned half way between the teeth. If you get any 1 cog off a whole tooth, it will never appear with everything lined up that you're only half a tooth off. It will be off a whole tooth, a tooth and a half, or more. It may appear you're off half a tooth in some cases, but as Ryan said, it's usually because things have been machined to tighter tolerances, which in turn moves the physical position of the cogs in the system (namely the camshaft cogs).

Here's pictures from the belt job I did last on 1837. Notice the crankshaft looking "half a tooth off". Of course, the pictures make it look better or worse depending on the camera angle. My head was decked down significantly, which caused the timing to appear off. The car has been running perfectly like this for thousands of miles.

 

[alik]

Mike, I appreciate the detailed explanation, and, yes, while it all makes reasonable sense, having thrown a rod (previously), and having trashed a head (on this engine), needless to say I'm more than a little wary of various little things that can (and will) go wrong on the effing DSM.

That is why I'm trying my darnedest to figure out (since I don't have any quantifiable experience) whether or not everything is the way it should be.

I swear, this was so much easier on the Miata.
(which reminds me. I gotta pull Miata's turbo engine apart. It's been sitting in the yard too long).

Okie. Sounds like the consensus is that I've got the belt on right. Everything is tight. Yes, the plugs are out, so now to put the plugs back in, slap the valve cover on, connect the wires and fire the sucker up.

Ugh. I wish this car wasn't numbered.
I would've shot it a long time ago. In the ass.

 

[GSTwithPSI]

Quoting alik:
Mike, I appreciate the detailed explanation, and, yes, while it all makes reasonable sense, having thrown a rod (previously), and having trashed a head (on this engine), needless to say I'm more than a little wary of various little things that can (and will) go wrong on the effing DSM.




You can call be Brett. I'm just in the Mike V. fan club. It's easy to get us mixed up though. We both are very knowledgeable, and also both have the 2 sweetest Galant VR-4s ever made.

 

[alik]

Quoting GSTwithPSI:

You can call be Brett. I'm just in the Mike V. fan club. It's easy to get us mixed up though. We both are very knowledgeable, and also both have the 2 sweetest Galant VR-4s ever made.



Brett, nice to meet you. You can call me Betty

 

[prove_it]

Quoting GSTwithPSI:
Quoting alik:
Mike, I appreciate the detailed explanation, and, yes, while it all makes reasonable sense, having thrown a rod (previously), and having trashed a head (on this engine), needless to say I'm more than a little wary of various little things that can (and will) go wrong on the effing DSM.




You can call be Brett. I'm just in the Mike V. fan club. It's easy to get us mixed up though. We both are very knowledgeable, and also both have the 2 sweetest Galant VR-4s ever made.



Yea, and also....
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