Stock/Mildly Tuned car - turbo choices!

[cheekychimp]

I am looking at a future replacement turbo for an essentially stock car that will be a family car/daily driver.

Considering advice from experienced veterans, logical progression and value for money, I am inclined to just go the tried and tested route on this one and get an EVO III 16G. I did however stumble upon this: -

FP DSM Big 28

Is this a revamp of the old 'disco potato' turbo? It is over $230 more than an EVO III so I know what most of you will say ... "just get the EVO III and be done with it!"

I'm just curious because I don't want or need loads of horsepower on this car. I have already started a thread on clutches and the posts in there suggest the EVO III will require a much beefier clutch if the boost is turned up and for a daily driver I really don't want to go down that road.

I am just wondering what sort of power this is rated at, given it hits full boost at 3000 rpms!

Also what is the deal with that 90 degree elbow, is that the routing for a SMIC on a stock 2G DSM?

 

[TylerAdamson]

The Fp Big 28 is intended for 2g owners as a direct bolt on replacement for the stock t-25. The Evo III and the Fp Big 28 are similar in size. For your needs I would also look into a small 16g. I'm not really sure where you can buy them from anymore, but that was my first turbo upgrade and it made plenty of power for what I wanted at the time.

 

[curtis]

Paul the big 16g is usually the safe cut of point anything else is going to punish the rest of the car and will require mucho upgrades. I would try and find a real big 16 with cast 02 housing and evo 3 manifold and call it good. Get a 2nd gen meter, some 650 to 750 injectors, 3 inch intake and 2.5 IC pipes with descent sized front mount a good BOV (hks or synchronic) and some 272's and get a chip from Jeff that has everything tuned out and a 255 intank with the rewire done. This should make a strong street car put a smile on your face and not stay on Jackstands.

 

[Whoodoo]

Isn't the level of abuse put on the car by a turbo mainly a factor boost pressure? I know volume flow is what gives you power, not pressure, but the amount of flow can be controlled by limiting how much boost you create right?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but just because you have a bigger turbo doesn't mean your car will blow up. It just means you need to be more careful about how you manage your air intake.

From what I read on the FP page about their 28, it sounds like this turbo is about perfect for what I am looking for as well. Just because it's intended for a 2g doesn't mean it will only work for a 2g. The biggest obstacle is dealing with the cold side throwing air the wrong way.

 

[toybreaker]

Paul, make it easy on yourself and put together a simple, reliable daily driver.

Build the car around a stock, bolt in turbo like the EvoIII 16g.
It's more than enough turbo for your goals, and easy to service/replace in the future.

Does this car have the jdm style intercooler? (get us a pic of what's there)

Keep the cyclone intake mani.

Add a 2g (or evo) mas, reasonably sized injectors, a sensible fuel pump, and top it off with dsm link (with a base tune for that set-up already in it)

done

Keeping everything stockish makes for lower maintainance, and most tasks that do arise could easily be done in a car park.



Your wallet, your mechanic, and your wife will thank you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif




And, so will your son, when he inherits a running, nice chassis in a few more years. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[cheekychimp]

Granted and you have all confirmed what I suspected.

I just wondered if the DSM FP Big 28 was less or more powerful than the EVO III? If it spools faster would it not make a nicer street turbo. I am not arguing just exploring. My mind does this! I cannot control it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I saw that opposite direction 90 degree bend and ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/idea.gif ... PWR Barrel air to water intercooler. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Everything else you suggested I go along with.

DSMLink,
I have spare 800cc SARD injectors lying around somewhere
EVO III manifold and O2 housing
Chris Beran 2G head
Cyclone stays
Cams /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

 

[iceman69510]

Besides, you still have Ubergalant under construction, so you don't need two high performance VR4s...

 

[2of9]

just for the hell of it, put some e85 in there /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif lol. I love my setup how it is and I'm sure if I get DSMLink+Retune, I'll be more than happy for what the car can do. Here's what I currently have:

- E316G
- 2g manifold
- fmic + 2.5 ic pipes
- 2g mas
- 550cc
- 190lph
- magnaflow 3" exhaust system
- S-afc (currently 'street tuned')
- greddy ebc set @ 18 psi

Can't imagine how much quicker this car would be with some bigger injectors, 255, e85 and a retune. must...not...spend...money on car!

 

[Barnes]

Quoting iceman69510:
Besides, you still have Ubergalant under construction, so you don't need two high performance VR4s...



This. "family car/daily driver" = dead stock, save for driveability/mpg mods. Cyclone/3g maf/keydiver ecu etc.

 

[cheekychimp]

I feel a bit misunderstood here. This started because the car currently needs a new clutch. I intended to replace the clutch with a stock one because this is going to be a family car/daily driver. However, the consensus was that the EVO III at anything over 15 psi could still overrun the clutch.

Going on the assumption that "you don't get something for nothing" I assumed that the faster spool of the Big 28 turbo meant it was smaller and might actually produce less power than the EVO III. It sounds from the tone of these replies that I may be mistaken about that and that you all think the Big 28 is even more powerful and may break something.

I just want a quick spooling turbo and low down grunt. I am not bothered about max horsepower on this car.

So!!! I want a turbo that spools by 3000 to 3500 rpms max on the stock motor. I don't want to run more than 1.0 bar (15 psi)

Will the EVO III boost as quickly as that Big 28 (14 psi by 3000 rpms!)?
Is it efficient enough at say 0.9 bar (13-14 psi) to make it a suitable replacement for a smaller turbo or will it feel laggy?
What other turbos would you suggest ... conquest 14G perhaps?

I don't have a problem putting a small turbo back on the car (it is just a daily driver after all) but the 14G is already $75 more expensive than the EVO III (cost effectiveness /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif)

Edit: Here is something else to think about? I already have a complete HKS (VR4 specific) turbo kit setup. T4 manifold in cast iron, Cast O2 housing, external gate and turbo. If that HKS 20G is too large, what about utilizing that kit and simply purchasing a small, externally gated T4 turbo that I could bolt up and go.

 

[grocery_getter]

What kind of horsepower are you actually going for with this daily driver?

 

[cheekychimp]

300 WHP or under.

That seems (from my research) to be a power level that is a lot of fun and results in minimal breakages. I'm not going to be heartbroken if I don't hit 300, I just don't want to go above that. I looked at that clutch thread carefully and I think the clutchnet red 2X pressure plate and a kevlar disc is a good balance of driveability, durability and cost. So I guess I want a turbo that won't surpass that clutch.

As I said also, I don't want to run high boost pressures, so a turbo that produces 350 hp at 21 psi but only 280 at the 13-15 psi I'll probably be running is still fine.

 

[JSchleim18]

Quoting cheekychimp:

Edit: Here is something else to think about? I already have a complete HKS (VR4 specific) turbo kit setup. T4 manifold in cast iron, Cast O2 housing, external gate and turbo. If that HKS 20G is too large, what about utilizing that kit and simply purchasing a small, externally gated T4 turbo that I could bolt up and go.



Maybe stick a small 16G into that housing if it's possible?

 

[cheekychimp]

That is a possibility! I think that particular turbo needs rebuilding anyway from what Curtis told me.

However having said that I spoke to Nate about the HKS setup before since he has run one and he said the kit although nice wasn't that good to work on from a maintenance perspective as clearances are still very tight.

I agree very strongly with what John "toybreaker" says. He is a very, very wise man and people ignore his advice at their peril. Consequently I am trying to remain focused on doing the 'right' thing whilst building something that is just that tiny bit different. It wouldn't be anywhere near as cheap, but I have looked at a Garrett GT28RS turbo too (the original "Disco Potato setup"). Small, ball bearing and full Garrett. Power is not that impressive, they say it is capable of 350 but the car it was originally developed for only made 280 WHP which is actually right in the ball park. Garrett also reported that it built boost so quick and made so much low down torque that the original project car for which the turbo was designed launched in 2nd gear. It actually sounds an ideal turbo. Fitment would be almost bolt on, I'd just need to check oil/water fittings and maybe get some hoses made if they aren't Mitsu compatible, and I'd probably use a restrictor for the oil feed.

After all the criticism I got over my last turbo choice, I'm trying to do a bit more research this time since I have some time to think about it. The other turbo is not shot so I am in no rush to buy a turbo yet. What I need to do is purchase a clutch so I just want to make sure I have an idea what turbo I'll be using so I know the clutchnet 2X PP Red and Kevlar disc will hold it.

On a side note I also found a vendor that builds the above turbos and puts them in the original S15 compressor housings so that the cold side and hot side of the turbo have bolt on flanges rather than silicone coupler connects. I quite like that. I'd need to check sizes but it looks as if the some of the J-pipe install kits would work making an nice clean setup in the engine bay and making it easier to but the couplers in more accessible areas for ease of maintenance.

Edit: Has anyone got real life figures for the EVO III on a stock motor at lower boost pressures say 1.0 bar or 15 psi? There seems to be a lot of conflicting info out there. I'm not interested in the top end, as I stated I don't want to push the envelope here. I want faster spool and response. People say the T28 and EVO III are similar but everything I heard points to the EVO III spooling slower but flowing more up top.

 

[Street Surgeon]

I have a very gently used FP 18G-6SL2 turbo in my posession. The turbo has

 

[thecman02]

I can confirm slippage from my stock clutch when i had a E316g at anything over 13psi with everything else stock except a fuel pump, adjustable fpr, 3 inch turbo back exaust, evo maf and Keydiver chip.