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Speed Density

Alainb7

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
60
Location
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Is there anybody here that switch to speed density?

Since I change to SD, My startup idle is weak. Cold or hot start.

When I stat a cold it's ok for maybe 5 second and stall, I retrart and restall. If I dont hold the gaz it will stall for first minutes. Afer 2 minutes, no problem. Idle is perfect.

After a hot restart, it stall and then ok.

Any idea?

I dont think its a problem, but I use narowband simulate and run lean burn (Put switchpoint tu 15,2:1)
 

prove_it

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Messages
4,201
Location
Sioux Falls, SD
On this board we stress proper english and spelling. It took me some time to figure out what your were talking about.

First, what ecu are you using to run speed density?

Second, what is your set-up?

Third, have you checked your FIAV valve?
 

AnotherNewb

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2010
Messages
1,472
Location
Orlando, FL
He's a canadian eh, cut him some slack. Usually a failed fiav causes high idle not stalling. But yes, we need to know what ecu you are using. I would go through the biss adjustment procedure and test your isc.
 

Alainb7

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
60
Location
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Sorry, I'm French Canadian, I know my english is not easy for you, but I ry to do my best.

First, what ecu are you using to run speed density?
DSM 1G ECU socketed with ECMlink v3 with GMIAT and 4bar GM boost/vaccum sensor for SD

Second, what is your set-up?
Check cut & paste of my mod list below

Third, have you checked your FIAV valve?
The FIAV is deleted. Same for EGR. But when I switch back to GM Maf, no problem.

Description
'92 Eagle 2000GTX rebadged into Mitsubishi Galant VR-4
4g63 Turbo Automatic AWD

Quarter miles:
[email protected] mph
(Time made in 2009 with my old chinese evo III GT turbo set at 24 psi)

Acceleration 0-60 MPH: 4.2s
Rooling start 50-75km/h: 2.9s

Not to bad for a 19 years old big fat uggly girl with a face lift!

337 WHP
404 LBS de Torque

Gone in 12 seconds!

Engine:
-4G63T 6bolt Complete rebuilt by Serge & TechnoMoteur 2008. Complete refresh in 2010 after bending 2 rod (gift from defective fuel pump)
-Piston 7.8:1 0.020" oversize
-Balancing revove kit OEM
-ARP head stud
-3G lifter
-Valve cover JDM YO!

Engine Cooling:
-Mishimoto Aluminium Rad
-Water wetter

Induction:
-3" intake CAI & Filter
-Speed density

Turbo:
-EVO III 16G Turbo at 28 psi
-Electronic Boost controler via ECMLink ECU

Intercooler & Piping:
-EVO VIII Front Mount Inter Cooler
-Blow Off Valve 1G
-Upper & lower Inter Cooler pipe 2.5" B7 Racing
-Dejon Tools 1g BOV Leak Stop Kit (Air Bypass Valve)
-4 ply silicone coupling (Siliconeintakes.com silicone + Thermopol)
-T-clamps (Siliconeintakes.com)

Exaust:
-EVO III exaust manifold
-Stanless Steel exaust manifold bolt
-EVO III O2 Housing(O2 sensor remove and narowband simulate via wideband)
-Evo VIII multi layer exaust gasket
-2.5" Mendrel bend exaust turbo back B7 Racing
-2.5" Vibrant High flow Catalytic Converter
-2.5" Super Turbo Muffler
-3.5" Stanless Steel tip

Intake:
-1G Intake
-Trottle Boby 1G NT + FIAV hot water feed deleted
-EGR Block off plate

Ignition:
-BPR7ES spark Plugs
-Accel 300+ wire

Fuel delivery:
-Denso 720cc Injector
-Denso/Kyosan 195130-1020 390 LPH High Pressure Fuel Pump
-Aeromotive Fuel Pressure Regulator 13009-A1000-6 set to 47.5 psi

Transmission:
-High Stall torque converter 3800rpm
-Shift kit TransLab last revision
-Base pression slighty increase
-Transmission Talon TSI AWD

Transmission Cooling:
-2 Plate-pin Tranny oil Cooler 30 rows 9" x 11" x 2" core mount each side of FMIC

Engine rad cooling
-185f rad sensor start AC pusher fan at high speed
-197f thermostat housing sensor start puller fan replace by a Sonata ac puller slim fan in hi speed
-lo speed on both fan was deleted

Drivetrain:
-Complete rebuilt drive Shaft
-4 bolts LSD AT Rear Differential 3.307:1
-Oil Redline Shockproof heavy (T-case & rear diff)

Management:
-1G Socketed EProm ECU
-ECM Link 1G v3.0
-Windows7 PC (Dell Mini9)

Gauge:
-Triple gauge pod A-pillar
-AEM Gauge-Type Wideband UEGO Controller
-Prosport Boost Gauge 30-0-30
-Tranny oil temperature gauge Autometer electrical Pro-Comp Ultra lite
-Engine oil temperature gauge Autometer electrical Pro-Comp Ultra lite
-Engine oil pressure Autometer electrical Pro-Comp Ultra lite
-Prosport Premium Peak/Warning electrical Fuel Pressure Gauge

Gauge for data loging (ECMLink):
-4 bar gm MAP sensor (for boost, boost controler & Speed Density)
-GM IAT (for boost, boost controler & Speed Density)
-AEM wideband sensor
-Prosport 150 psi fuel pressure

Brake:
-Double piston Big brake caliper
-4 Discs brake Eurorotor
-Pad PBR Ceramic

Wheel:
-Mags MOMO GT2 grey Antracite
-Yokohama Avid TRZ

Handling:
--Super Pro whiteline polyurethane bushing all around

Body:
-EVO III style Front Bumper
-EVO IX Carbon fiber OEM spoiler
-EVO IX Hood vent deflector & grill fully fonctional
-GVR4 body kit
-Galant AMG center grill replica
-Paint Scellant (2010)

Lightning:
-Headlight '93
-Driving light 6 1/2" Hella 500
-HID 6000K 35w
-Full LED conversion (Head light(Hight Beam), tail light, parking & interior (v-leds.com)
-Blue LED dash conversion (v-leds.com)
-JDM corner light

Other:
-Eclipse '99 sterring wheel
-Digital ignition kill
-Alarme Alpine
-Radio/DVD/GPS DoubleDin touch screen Pioneer Avic-F90BT
-Window tint 5% Black limo rear door, backglass & sunroof, 1% black limo windshield stripe and 50% front door
 
Last edited:

Terry Posten

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 16, 2003
Messages
9,009
Location
Davenport, Iowa USA
Without a working ISC and FAIV your car cannot adjust to cold or hot starting properly. You will be forced to "baby" the throttle until you have the car at normal operating temps. And this is only going to work well at the intake temps you tuned your car for in the begging as it can't adjust itself as needed to adjust for cold and hot days.

And with an automatic tranny, this will compound your issues as the converter always puts a load on the engine. Manual cars in neutral don't load down the motor and are a bit more forgiving at idle as the motor does not have to compensate for the various loads being put on it.
 

Alainb7

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
60
Location
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Yah but it made it on Neutral/Park and when switch back from SD to MAF, there is no problem.
 

Terry Posten

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 16, 2003
Messages
9,009
Location
Davenport, Iowa USA
There is a big difference with reading the manifold pressure and reading the incoming air.

It is much easier to adjust in very precise measurements when you know exactly how much air is being pulled into the motor. The reason this is problematic for most of us is that we are dealing with a 20 year old car that has leaks in the intake system after the metering device.

SD is very hard to make very fine adjustments from extremely small changes in the intake manifold with vac/boost readings. It is also very slow to respond as you have very little time to adjust the proper fuel input because you are reading right before the combustion chamber. By the time the ECU sees a need, adjusts the injector pulse and timing adjustment, at a very low RPM, it is too late.

I would back down your fuel pressure to 44psi, tweak your global injector dead time accordingly, and set RPM a bit higher to help the motor have a bit more "recovery time" before it falls too low to recover with ECU input.
 

I have my car set up on speed density, also using v3 ecmlink.

Have you made any adjusments to your airflow table? It's most likely that you will need to adjust your VE in the affected area. Work the cells from 0-1500rpm, and load factor 0.0-7.3, in my experience, this is about the range of your idle, however, using the "track datalog" feature will confirm this. Use the lock in open loop feature to log your idle, then use that log to make the adjustments. You will want to compare wideband AFR data with your ECU's target AFR from the direct access table. When your air flow is correct, your measured afr (wideband) will match your ecu's target afr, and everything should smooth out. I use a really simple calculation to do this, that is NOT 100% accurate, but get's you very close. Simply take your target afr (from your direct access open loop max octane table), and divide it by your measured afr, wich will generate a percentage, then multiply the value in the affected cell of your ve table by that percentage, and you will generate your new ve. There is another more accurate formula that uses measured boost vs the ecu's estimated boost, but it is only accurate @ 100% ve, so it's best to only use as a sanity check as they say. Here's an example of the AFR method, I'll make the numbers extreme so they are easy to understand:

Lets say your target AFR is 14.7, and your measured afr is 12.5.

12.5 / 14.7 = .85

Now lets say the affected VE cell is 49%

.49 x .85 = 41.6

Change the VE in the affected cell to 41.5 as the ecmlink table has a resolution of 1/2 a percent (as opposed to 1/10), and then go back and log it again, and you should see your measured and target AFR's line up. You won't be able to get data for every single cell, so this is where you use a little artistic flare to "blend" the cells into a sensible progression based on the concept that VE generally increases with RPM and pressure. ECMLink also has some blending tools, that I havn't messed with personally, but they take care of the blending part for you.

Hope this helps!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

prove_it

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Messages
4,201
Location
Sioux Falls, SD
I was going to recommend getting the VE table set-up as well. This is (in my opinion) one of the most important steps to running speed density. Get that dialed in completely and I'd bet most of your issues will disappear.
 

Yep, the stock VE table is designed so that the car will start and run when making the switch, and is actually pretty solid in the cells that apply to open loop, but the MAF does a lot of work in the closed loop cells, especially at idle, because the air flow is less stable at lower velocity...
 
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