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speed density good OR bad

mikus

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Jan 11, 2007
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Aurora IL
+1 you know what's bad about SD? all the BS posts. Good on anyone for taking the initiative to learn, but it's just another doodad.

Buy it, learn it, good on you. DIAF if you later post about the SD coefficient of RTV*o2/MTV² on teh dingleberry gear while in WOT, when your 1992 DSM leaks oil and grinds 2nd.
 

Barnes

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Feb 9, 2003
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Richland, WA
Racah15 , You need to do some research. Your explanation of Speed-Density and MAS/MAF are wrong. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif (EDIT: Or they aren't wrong, and I'm just not reading you right! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)
All the sensor methods discussed here correctly determine the mass flow rate into the engine. They are insensitive to changes in temperature through the intake-piping-turbo etc. The only advantage of knowing air temperatures going into the intake manifold vs. the intake pipe is how you adjust timing or boost. The computer will put the correct amount of fuel in, either way.
The only direct method I know of that measures the *actual* density, and thus mass flow, is a hot wire maf.

Speed density (MAP + AIT), Karman Vortex, etc rely on other variables or inputs.

The Karman Vortex only measures velocity. It needs to measure pressure and temperature at the sensor to calculate density, which can then be used with the velocity to determine mass flow rate.

The Speed-Density system knows the the density of the air via the MAP & AIT sensor, but not the volumetric flowrate. That's where the 'Speed' in speed density comes from. It's fairly easy to characterize the velocity of the air entering into an engine of a known configuration. You know the displacement, VE, compression ratio, etc. As your car is running, you also know the RPM. With the knowledge of the engine's characteristics combined with the RPM information, you can know with good accuracy what the volumetric flowrate of the air coming into the engine is. Combining that with the density, you get the mass flow rate.

The thing everyone needs to remember, is that any of these systems (SD, Hot-Wire MAF, Karman Vortex MAS, etc) are used ultimately to determine the mass flow rate into the engine. Velocity, volume, density, temperature on their own are meaningless if you can't use that information to determine MASS FLOW.

Why is MASS FLOW the term we care about? Because an engine is simply a machine that captures the mechanical motion due to the energy release of a CHEMICAL REACTION. And for chemical reactions, you MUST know what the MASS is of your reactants.

So now that the engine knows the MASS of air flowing into the engine, and how fast it's flowing in, it can then decided how much MASS of fuel to put in, and how fast.

I'll see if I can post up some equations.

So at the end of the day, all these systems do the same thing. It's just which one has the advantages we want. E.G. you can still drive with blown couplers, no MAS overrun, etc.

EDIT: Said 'Velocity' when discussing the SD system when I should have said 'Volumetric Flowrate'
 
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Barnes

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So for a MAF/MAS like we have on our cars stock, you could stick that on anything moving air, and it would tell you the mass flow rate. Same goes for a hot-wire maf. Heck, you could stick it on your vacuum cleaner.

You could not however stick a speed-density setup on said vacuum cleaner and get an actual massflow rate.
 

prove_it

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Sioux Falls, SD
Thank you! I was trying to think of a way to explain it. Leave it up to a GVR4 master to tell it how it is. I have yet to see one VE table on Link that is anywhere near what the "stock" table is. Hell having loose pistons will effect the VE. Valves, cams, intake design, polished or not, TB size, piping size/length, and so on all effect the table. Change anything, and the tune is off.

My point is that SD takes time and passion to dial in. I don't make huge power, nor do I plan on it. I like SD because I know how to set it up and understand what's needed and why. I also can street tune my car and make appropriate changes as I want. I don't need to go pay someone to do that every time I change piping or intercooler, or other pieces. It can get tricky to get the right numbers in place as your trying to balance global fuel, deadtime, and the VE table. Link is way easier to dail in than AEM, especially motec. ew.

The OP asked, I just want to explain why it's great, but the costs that come with SD. IF you already have LINK then sure spend the other 100 bucks to set-up SD. If you have to pay someone to tune it though, don't change your mechanical set-up. I changed my exhaust housing from an EBAY 7cm to a ported MHI 7cm and my table went off. Again not drastic change, but enough to alter my fuel trims. Anything that will effect airflow will change the tune. MAF will compensate better as it's not just a guess referenced from a table.

One thing that maybe someone can shed some light on is how much does humidity come into play? I know the water will displace the air, but does it make a difference? I'd say comparing 20% to 80%.
 
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Racah15

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Aug 28, 2012
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Colorado springs CO
I'm sorry. Maybe I am not the professional speed density king, which I know I'm not. I just stated my understanding. I do not claim it is the end all be all, but I went based on my assumtions. I also should of noted that a stock engine stock cams stock turbo etc. I don't know, but my wideband logs 11.2-4 @ WOT without a WOT Tune on the Galant using ecmlink provided VE table, minus idle tune. I think that's pretty close to stock, but then again I don't know. My main concern was my opinionated statement of the pro's and Cons, I get most missed that.

I forgot this is GVR4.org /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worthy.gif

Barnes, You best explained it, and I respect your post. The others who are arrogant.... is another story.

Thanks
 

Racah15

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Aug 28, 2012
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315
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Colorado springs CO
Not at altitude I guess? Stock maf Logged 10.3-10.6? Not sure, don't have one any more. I just meant it's close to what I had before. But again I'll just get flamed for saying .6 is close.
 

Barnes

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Possible correction: I think SD uses the MAP as part of the Volumetric flow look up table. At least that would make sense. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 

turbowop

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Apr 29, 2001
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Yakima, WA
Quoting Racah15:
Not at altitude I guess? Stock maf Logged 10.3-10.6? Not sure, don't have one any more. I just meant it's close to what I had before. But again I'll just get flamed for saying .6 is close.



I'm not flaming you. This is just a discussion, no? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Saying stock maf logged 10.3-10.6 and seeing 11.2-11.4...I tend to see that as a bigger difference than .6. The average difference there is more around .8 which is getting close to one full point, or more if you see swings from the low end to the high end of that range. .8 for me while spraying meth at the top of the revs at WOT is the difference between running safe or melting a plug...or worse. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/noes.gif

Stock maps target mid 9's. Whether or not the car hits that is based on several things with the car and location it's being run.
 
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prove_it

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Turning this around back on track unless someone wants to troll.

Converting to SD requires time and knowledge. It's not for a stock engine (which I don't get why you ever would---- Racah15). It's like a Coil on plug set-up. Do you need it? No. Will it help your set-up? It can. Logging IAT and MAP are a big bonus, but you can do that without converting....

I'm still waiting for the OP to post up why they are considering the switch.
 

turbowop

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Going SD frees up some sensor inputs for logging. Otherwise the stock maf has to use those inputs and your stuck having to choose between what's more important to log, WB, MAP, IAT, etc. I don't think it's possible to log even two of those unless you simulate the NB signal, let alone all three. This is all using ECMlink of course.
 

prove_it

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Jul 3, 2008
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Sioux Falls, SD
With a translator, GM sensor you can no prob. Otherwise you could lock the intake temp with link and use that input.
I wish link had more logable inputs though. Someday maybe.
 

Racah15

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Aug 28, 2012
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Colorado springs CO
Quoting prove_it:

Converting to SD requires time and knowledge. It's not for a stock engine (which I don't get why you ever would---- Racah15).



Right...... Because you are the end all be all about speed density right? I forgot you are king 4g63 and you decide what is right for stock and modified engines. Maybe it's not stock? Maybe my engine was a stock rebuild with new everything? Maybe that Evo 3 16g that's on there now, maybe that's not stock? Or maybe the upgraded fuel system? Maybe I want to push power on a stock engine? But I forgot, SD is not for stock engine.... only because you said it. Don't mind the better gas mileage I'm getting. Don't mind the responsiveness I'm getting. Don't mind the fact that my engine bay is clean now with all all new piping and no ugly maf. Maybe I did it to get rid of the pipe? Maybe I did it because I didn't get a maf with the car when I got it. Maybe I did it because the 1g maf and pipe that I had to buy (because I couldn't source a local galant pipe) looked like crap. Maybe I did it because I actually gained horsepower on my 2g when I switched to SD. Oh wait, that was wrong too because that TOO was on a stock engine. And holy crap it pulled like a freighttrain (Auto, and almost maxed out 16g), but right... I forgot it was wrong of me to do that, because it was on a stock engine. Don't mind the fuel system and every other supporting mod for it, it was a 100 stock engine with ARP head studs.

I can do whatever the hell I want to do with my car. It's my car, I can covert to Speed Density if I want right? Maybe not, it's not for a stock engine apparently, so I should switch back to a Maf. Because you say it's not for it.


On the correct note, I hope the O.P. Finds info on speed density and chooses accordingly. My main interest was to post Pros and Cons of speed density, but that got ignored and I got called out for my incorrect assumptions. I'm sorry I explained it incorrectly (I'm still learning; However, I do feel the pro's and con's were correct and my post was according)
 
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ktmrider

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Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,128
Location
Tempe, AZ
Christ on an effing Corndog peeps. Interweb regurgitation and thuggery at its best.

Racah15 get a grip. Absolutely do whatever the flock you want with your car. Spread the wealth on you experiences. Convince someone with a non-gazillion HP motor that their car too can pull like a "freight train" with SD. Cuz you and so-an-so-who-ran-8's had SD. Question has been asked an answered a hundred times over. Same exact responses and flames, ie nut-swingers on both sides.

'Cuse me while I whip my cars keys out and drive off into the sunset..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 

prove_it

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Jul 3, 2008
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Sioux Falls, SD
Take a chill pill. Deep breath, ah whooosssaaaa....

We good now?

Cause getting all pissed off and defensive won't get you anywhere.

I just don't get why someone would spend over $600 bucks to have link w/SD and then have a few basic bolt-ons. When a simple $100 chip will work.
Everyone can do whatever they want. I've been flamed for my mod list. I don't care.

That's my opinion. I'm entitled to that. Deal with it.

Oh and SD doesn't add power. It frees up restriction in cars running over 45lbs/min and most power gained is from the tuning.
 
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matt92vr4

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Oct 3, 2010
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676
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Venice, FL

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