How much power could be made on a stock USDM turbo (running E85)?

[belize1334]

The intake pipe is still a little unclear to me. But, I know that you can remove components of the intake track if they can be unbolted and are obsolete due to some other legal mod. I.e. you may not be able to run an aftermarket pipe...but if you didn't need the MAF then you could get away with no pipe at all. Speed density baby...

 

I take it you plan to go SD, how are you going to tune? DSM-link? Stand-alone (if so which one)?

Thanks,
TJ

 

[belize1334]

Likely use DSMap with Ostrich emulator. Entire setup costs about $200 not including wide-band. With my IC the stock pipe is not an option. But, if an aftermarket pipe is legal then I'll just stick to MAF for a while.

 

[NateCrisman]

I ran E85 with a 14B w/ 7cm housing last night (pretty much maxed out for airflow at about 20psi) on 750cc injectors, a normal intank 255pump at 40psi base pressure and only needed about 80% duty cycle on the injectors. 650cc injectors might even work out ok with E85 on a 14b.

Granted, Im running a completely stock engine, intake, cams, headgasket. The only upgrades to the longblock are ARP headstuds and balance shafts eliminated. Everything else is basic bolt on mods.

 

[uncleben4rice]

I got 363awd hp to the wheels on 91 pump with 950cc injectors. I am going to change my injectors to 1450cc and look to put 500awd hp to the wheels on the mustang dyno soon. I will post the results. Dave Womer is tuning my car...his car runs 10.01 at 147 on c116. He is getting ready to change over to e85. Call FFTEC they will give you real answers. All the evo/dsm guys are running e85 and seeing 500awdhp on the dyno. Here in Nor-Cal e85 is getting popular and they are doing 4g63 pump gas to e85 swaps everyday. Word to the wise, Get yo Mods up. The Uncle out.

 

[brisvr4]

^^^On a stock 14b /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
He is asking about a stock turbo.
Video or it never happened...

 

[uncleben4rice]

My bad, I got off base. The guy who tuned my car went 11s on a 14b with race gas not e85. They (e85 and race gas) kinda the same thing right?

 

Quoting brisvr4:
^^^On a stock 14b /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
He is asking about a stock turbo.
Video or it never happened...



It didn't. Reading comprehension failure.

 

[uncleben4rice]

I said my bad, you know you guys suck ass. I was only trying to tell the newb to call my tuner and get a real answer. You asscrackers dont know nothing. Yall always quick to jump on the bad mouth bandwagon. Thats why I dont f*** with this site like I used to. Instead of really trying to help someone with honest answers and or experience, you broke ass, slow ass car driving, dumb shits always talking sh*t. This is the reason this site is starting to get-I mean has a bad name. Go ahead and pick this apart like you pick your ass hairs. I dont care no more. Just dont come talking sh*t to my face. Cause I will beat that ass. Im outta here. this is stupid. one car having,slow pos driving, dick less punks. f***ing cyber bangers. With yo bitch asses. Makes me sick. This is my last post to this stupid ass site. Peace Uncle out for good.

NOW LIKE I SAID, DAVE FROM FFTEC WENT 11'S ON A 14B WITH RACE GAS, ASK HIM, HE IS KNOWN FOR DOING MORE WITH LESS, HE COULD TELL YOU HOW MUCH POWER THE 14B COULD MAKE AND HOW FAST IT SHOULD GO IN STOCK TRIM....video or it did not happen my ass. Take that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hsugh.gif I comprehend you guys are lonely pricks with slow cars. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

 

[NateCrisman]

I went 12.0 on a 14b in a brick GVR4, so don't lump me in with slow-asses. I'm planning to run mid 10's with a 14b in my DSM this season and take back the record (I'm currently the #2 stock turbo guy for DSM chassis and the #1 GVR4) Dave and I discuss 14b setup info all the time, usually on tuners where there some active drag race oriented people (this is not the site for that kind of info sadly). Go look, we have a thread in Drag Racing section for 14B info that is 655 replies long with nearly 17,000 views.

Here's what I saw for DSMlink calculated hp difference between 93 pumpgas and E85 at the dragstrip on the same night/same weather/same setup (this is data from 3rd gear of two different passes). Obviously the E85 made more power due to higher boost and more aggressive tune...trap speed went up a solid 4mph from 105 to 109. Take the absolute # values with a grain of salt. What matter is seeing the difference between runs.

The unfortunate part is if your going to push a 14b that hard, which means spiking it to around 26psi in order to get it to maybe hold 20psi by 6500rpm, this is going to eventually happen:

 

[belize1334]

1) Uncleben: I'm tired of you ranting. Stop it. stop it! You never contribute anything useful and your diatribes just make me want to avert my eyes. I only got two sentences into the above post before I had resolved to tell you, yet again, to stop it!.

2) Nate: Is that a broken turbine shaft or am I missing something?

 

[H05TYL]

Quoting NateCrisman:

The unfortunate part is if your going to push a 14b that hard, which means spiking it to around 26psi in order to get it to maybe hold 20psi by 6500rpm, this is going to eventually happen:

I'd've thought a decent electronic boost controller would've enabled you to have much more consistent boost than that.

 

[NateCrisman]

Yes that's my 14B with the turbine wheel missing...snapped the shaft. An electronic boost controller does not somehow magically make a tiny turbo flow enough air to keep up with the engine. A 14B is simply too small for a 2.0L engine.

If you wanted to set an electronic boost controller to run a flat steady pressure through a run, the most you can set it to is about 19 or 20psi since that is the most boost a 14b is going to make up around 6500rpm. If you try to set the controller to 24, you will see the kind of boost and power curve I posted above (the red line) where you make large increases in midrange rpm but small gains up top. You could likely set your boost controller to over 30psi and see an insane amount of torque/midrange power but still end up making the same 310hp up top at 6500-7000rpm since the boost pressure is going to fall down to the same 19 to 20psi no matter what the wastegate and boost controller try to do.

Basically what Im saying is that using an electronic controller to tame down the midrange rpm boost spike, but it tames down your power output and track mph at the same time. The boost dropping off with rpm is a fault of the turbo being too small, not the type of boost controller. And the more boost the turbo spikes to, the faster it's going to die. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

 

[H05TYL]

ah right I've gotcha.

Were you using a stock thrust bearing?

 

Nate, have you ever considered using an external wastegate on a 14b/16g to hold that spike out longer than an electronic boost controller can before bleeding off?

I know with class rules with what the original poster is trying to do, he can't do an external gate but I'd be interested to see if that netted any more consistant pressure duration.

 

[NateCrisman]

I think you can weld the wastegate shut all together and you'll end up with nothing more than a spike to 35psi and it will fall to the same 22psi at 6500. You'll make a giant torque peak and the exact same horsepower at 5500 up (car should go a tick faster due to the spike).

The limiting factor is the compressor is running completely off the map at maximum output and nothing on the exhaust/control side will fix that. We might be talking a difference of half a psi or so between all the methods of boost control. You can always preload the heck out of a stock internal actuator and use a nice new E3 turbine housing with stock size flap door, no porting of the WG passage and it will seal nice. That's about the best internal gate situation and I would bet it runs nearly exactly the same as an external gate.


Quoting H05TYL:
ah right I've gotcha.

Were you using a stock thrust bearing?



stock 14b I bought on this board...supposed to be low mileage and was in nice clean condition. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

 

[H05TYL]

Has anyone monitored pressure in the exhaust manifold as well as the inlet?

in terms of flow (either mass or volumetric) through the cylinder head the intake manifold pressure does not matter a crap. what matters is the difference in pressure between the intake manifold and the exhaust manifold (delta - P). this is effectively the 'head' across the cylinder head. like cam said reduce the exhaust manifold pressure by using a bigger turbine or exhaust and you increase delta - P for a given intake manifold pressure allowing a greater flow. this is why it is important to monitor delta - P if you are turning the boost up to high levels, i.e. it is possible to loose power by turning the boost up because you are decreasing delta - P.

Delta P is the pressure difference between the intake manifold pressure and the exhaust manifold pressure. You will find at some point the exhaust manifold pressure will take off in relation to the intake manifold pressure. Do not let it do this. Usually this happens just after the exhaust manifold pressure exceeds the intake manifold pressure though not always.

When you turn boost up, the pressure in your exhaust will build up. The more restrictive the exhaust system (which includes the manifold, turbine housing and turbine wheel) the quicker it will become a problem - when it gets excessively high it can start pushing hot exhaust back into the engine itself, when the engine is actually trying to pump exhaust out. That drops your engines efficiency greatly and you can start getting detonation - definitely premature wear on both the turbo and the motor.



So, If we can decrease the turbine inlet pressure, ideally by using a bigger turbine housing, though potentially with a larger and better placed wastegate, we could make life 'easier' for the compressor?

I'm hoping someone with a better understanding of this than me can explain this properly because I'm abit out of my depth... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[belize1334]

Another question. Is there any utility in using adjustable cam gears with the stock cams and 14b? Adjustable gears are legal in SP and perhaps could be used to shift the power-band a little and maybe help the turbo breath a little more... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

 

Quoting belize1334:
1) Uncleben: I'm tired of you ranting. Stop it. stop it! You never contribute anything useful and your diatribes just make me want to avert my eyes. I only got two sentences into the above post before I had resolved to tell you, yet again, to stop it!.

2) Nate: Is that a broken turbine shaft or am I missing something?


omg dude lmfao /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

 

[solidviper89]

what did i miss?