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Fire Ring

Lukefraizer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
157
Location
Fort Collins CO
For some reason after 9k on the engine rebuild the stupid thing is blowing smoke from somewhere.... I have no idea where or how but it is very annoying! That said... I have been talking with some of my diesel buddies and they all say when I get the rebuild done I should get it fire ringed. Does anyone do this on these 4g63s? If so how much luck have you had with it and would you do it again?? From what I understand it removes your head gasket and you put in o rings instead. I like the idea and it is supposed to be better for the high compression ratings. If not how should I rebuild this so it does not start smoking again after so few miles....
 

Barnes

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 9, 2003
Messages
6,249
Location
Richland, WA
You do not need to 'fire ring' your engine. If somethingn is wrong with your head gasket you either did something wrong, or used the wrong parts.

In all likelihood you are not blowing smoke from the headgasket. Could you give more details about where this smoke is coming from and when? How much boost are you running? What parts did you use for the headgasket/studs for the rebuild?
 

chach161

Active member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
39
Location
Moses Lake, WA
Always a bad day when you put all that work into a motor and it starts smoking. The first thing I would do is a compression check and see what the compression numbers are and the difference between cyl. Is the smoke a black/blue smoke? Most likely the smoke is from oil which would be either sticky piston rings or valve guide seals. If it is white smoke and you are loosing coolant it would be a headgasket issue. That would be solved with an O-ring block but would also be fixed if you have your block and head decked(flattened).
O-ringed 4g63 blocks are not that popular but I know of a few. Never heard of Fire Ring but guess that is the diesel term. There isn't much room between cylinders I think is the main reason why it isn't that popular. Mostly people running over 30psi boost and if you aren't running that much boost you shouldn't need to do that.
 

chach161

Active member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
39
Location
Moses Lake, WA
Oh, don't rule out that your turbo could be causing the smoke.
 

gramkrakr89

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Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Messages
308
Location
Bunker Hill, WV
"somewhere" does no good as a description for the many knowledgeable peeples here trying to help you...
"the stupid thing" is an understandable vent for frustration, but please remember that a build (for anything) is only as good as the parts, know-how, workmanship, and care/responsibility that go into it.

Where is the smoke originating from? Tailpipe? Engine bay? Crankcase? Radiator? Passenger cabin?

Before you consider something as unnecessary as 'fire-ring'ing the deck, take a moment to find out where the smoke comes from and, most importantly, why. How is your compression? Is it oil smoke? Coolant smoke? Belt smoke?

Plenty of people have run plenty of power for very decent mileage without headgasket issues, even with stock composite headgaskets. As a matter of fact, MLS and other stiffer, non-standard gaskets will fail even earlier than the stock composite ones without the proper deck and head surfaces. If yours is shot this early in the game, something must be wrong with the build.

It is better for you to investigate and find out what is wrong than it is for people here to tell you what you should do about it. After you have found the problem, that is when you should ask for advice on what to do next. It is more than likely something simple that needs addressed.
 

Jason G.

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 7, 2003
Messages
3,279
Location
Anderson, SC
Your headgasket has the fire rings in it.

Need to post the compression numbers for each cylinder and go from there.
 

4thStroke

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
1,864
Location
Vancouver, WA
I don't believe the Mitsu MLS has rings in the gasket. The Felpro and Cometic do have rings, and thus using these Felpro and Cometic will only cause problems with an o-ringed block.

A guy at work just had his fresh 2.2l Evo push coolant like nobodies business because of how rough the deck and head surfaces were while using an MLS gasket. Not only does the surface need to be as flat as can be, but it also needs to be extremely smooth to get the MLS gasket to seal up completely. You should have no reason to run an o-ringed block unless you are making 1000+bhp.

To o-ring the block, the motor will need to be stripped down anyways and will probably run you $200-$300 to have it done correctly. Your time and money would be better spent having a good shop surface the head and deck.
 

Lukefraizer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
157
Location
Fort Collins CO
Alright a little back ground on the build. About a year ago now we did a complete rebuild eagle forged rods and crankshaft also Weisco 8.5:1 pistons. Cosmetic MLS head gasket and APR head studs holding down a port and polished rebuild head. Stock sized intake and exhaust valves from Supertech. New valve guides and seals from them as well. On top of that I have HKS 272 camshafts with all new lifters and valve springs. Out side of that we have the stock intake manifold and FP exhaust manifold with a EVO3 16 g with a full 3" exhaust. For the fuel... I am running 750 cc injectors with the AEM v2 stand alone ECM with a snow performance water meth system integrated into it. Daily driving it the smoke is coming from the tail pipe on first start up and heavy acceleration. It is blue. Turns to black because of too much fuel in there according to my gauges. I looked at the cylinder heads with a borascope and the pistons seem to be in fine shape. I did a leak down test on it as well and there was no leakage either. All of this added up to valve guides and seals leaking with a possibility of a back shaft on a valve. Addressing the turbo... I have no idea how I could check the turbo for the leak. However that is something that I considered. Pushing 25 lbs of boost does not seem like it is pushing the limits of that turbo though. I don't have exact numbers for the compression test right now but I will get them today between classes. And to be quite honest I was just asking about the fire rings. It seems like a good idea with how much my buddies are loving it right now but that is why I was asking about it on here. I have never seen it so I was just asking about it. However help with getting this thing figured out would be amazing!

Luke
 

chach161

Active member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
39
Location
Moses Lake, WA
Ok, thanks for the background info. Now to forget the trouble shooting and talk about o-ringed/fire ring blocks.

I found the thread at DSM Tuners O-ring head gaskets to have a number of people talking that have o-ringed blocks. Seems like they differ on Copper or Stainless rings and how the gasket fits. That leaves me with more questions than answers but there seems to be more than 2 or 3 ways to do it.

I would think I would want the o-rings stainless and to fit through the head gasket that would be composite. This also makes me think that I remember of seeing some heads and blocks of some race engines that are not flat but both machined to fit each other and I thought that might be a superior design.
 

gramkrakr89

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Messages
308
Location
Bunker Hill, WV
25psi on an evo3 16G? That seems to be pushing the limit as far as mass flow goes... maybe its just me? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

The smoke you describe sounds a lot like oil smoke.

What kind of oil feed+return are you using for your turbo? The smoke you're describing could still be the turbo. It can be easily rebuilt for cheap if there is no damage to rotating components or housings. I'm not saying that the turbo is definitely leaking; check the valve stems/seals, but do not rule out the possibility. Also, since it's an easy thing to do, check your IC piping (lower and upper) for oil residue inside. The only way that oil can get into your IC piping is either straight into your intake through the filter, or a leak at the compressor side of the turbo.

-----

"O-ring"ing the head/block definitely enhances the seal between the cylinder and combustion chamber, but is not necessary for most builds. It requires some precise machine work and alignment to have any significant advantage. IMHO, if you still drive your car on the street, you don't really need an o-ringed setup.

When you did the rebuild, were the block and head mating surfaces checked for flatness and finish? A MLS gasket can sometimes be compromised due to the uneven pressure. Composite (stock) gaskets tend to "crush" and "mold" to the mating surfaces a little better, and are more forgiving. MLS gaskets require an especially flat, smooth surface in order to gain any significant benefit from using them. Your MLS gasket should hold up fine if the surfaces are good enough.

Truthfully, there is no reason why you can't o-ring your build if you're willing to go through what it takes. It just seems unnecessary for your setup.
 

Lukefraizer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
157
Location
Fort Collins CO
Posting from my phone but did compression and the cylinders were all at 120. Dont know if that helps at all
 

turbowop

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Joined
Apr 29, 2001
Messages
11,971
Location
Yakima, WA
Lunch today left me with a fire ring, OMFG spicy. Blew out my o-ring on the toilet blarRRHGGGHH

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif


On topic: those compression numbers are low, but the important thing is they're consistant between cylinders. Probably low due to improper compression testing. Did you have the enigine at full operating temp and open the throttle plate completely while cranking?
 

Lukefraizer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
157
Location
Fort Collins CO
Quick reply I did find oil in the intercooler pipe at the low point... I never thought to look there. Also it was at operating temperature but the throttle plate was not fully open. Which makes since why it would be low. How can I look into the turbo being the cause of the leak? It would make me very happy if that was the case!

Luke
 

grocery_getter

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 20, 2004
Messages
1,225
Location
Kent - industrial suburbs of Seattle, WA
take off you exhaust manifold. Look inside exhaust manifold and inside exhaust port in the head. If port and manifold is covered in oil then its your motor. If they are clean its your turbo.
 

transparentdsm

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
3,690
Location
Cherry Hill, NJ
those compression numbers arent low, you have to subtract like 6 - 9 psi for every 1000 feet of elevation off of sea level you are. i had 105 psi across the boards on my one car up at 7000 feet and brought it down to sea level and the compression is now 155 across the board. 50 psi from a 7000 foot elevation. 120 psi at 5000 feet seems right to me. bring her down to sea level and the numbers will be right around 150-160. i think your right on the valve seals luke..
 

Lukefraizer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
157
Location
Fort Collins CO
So on the agenda today check the exhaust manifold and figure out the issue! If it is the turbo... I was talking with a friend of mine and he was saying the turbo should be balanced when it gets rebuilt. Any thoughts on that or any way I could get around that?
 

transparentdsm

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
3,690
Location
Cherry Hill, NJ
yeah, if you mark the compressor side wheel with the shaft you can avoid a balance. look on youtube, there is a step by step on there somewhere. its super easy to do.

part 1
click

part 2
click

takes like 35 minutes for the walkthrough.
 
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