Direction of my build advice

[VR_IV_MR]

lets assume the fuel system and drivetrain can handle it,

would you rather have a

fully ported big e3 16g setup with a fully built head with cams/gears

or

bigger turbo setup with a stock head?



eventually both will happen. but one will be this year, and one will be in a year or two.

the only thing that pushes me towards doing the turbo setup first is.. if I build the head first and then my turbo hits the shitter, my car is going to be JSB until I can afford to do the turbo setup that I want (which involves a TS manifold, wastegates, yada yada.) The thing is, the turbo I want (HTA3586) needs a built head to really shine... What would I be able to do with a car that has an HTA86 and a stock head? Would it be safe to do just as long as I keep it under 7k rpms and only have a 2k rpm powerband for a year or two? I can live with that... lol thoughts?

 

[TomN]

I would get a curt brown 7 bolt head, some cams and a E316g.

 

[Racah15]

Quoting VR_IV_MR:
lets assume the fuel system and drivetrain can handle it,

would you rather have a

fully ported big e3 16g setup with a fully built head with cams/gears

or

bigger turbo setup with a stock head?





Depends what your goals are. It also VASTLY depends on what you have done to your car. Also, What HP range do you want to accomplish? Is it for street or strip. Weekend warrior or Daily driver? How much money do you have to spend on the project? Have you done proper maintenance to be able to support the new setup? Do you have the proper headstuds to support the higher boost. Don't do any mods if your car leaks oil/coolant or needs something.

I would prefer the evo3 setup if your car is going to be a daily driver, or weekend warrior. Here at 6300ft elevation, we have laid down 380-402hp out of an evo 3 16g. It is a very powerful turbo, and your powerband will be amazing. I just hope that by "built head" you don't mean brian crapper cams, brain crapper springs, stock valves and ebay cam gears. If you are going to do it, do it right, do it once. Get yourself some decent springs (supertech,kiggly, buscher, magnus etc), decent cams (Kelford, GSC ) and some decent valves/ valve guides etc. Also with a properly built head, the powerband is still a bit high on the turbo you want. Here is a powerband for the HTA86 on my friend Joe's 2g talon

Check out that powerband. Its on a oringed buscher stage 2 head and Kelford 280/276 cams.

But these are just my .02 Cents and It's all up to you and what you want to do. Make sure you choose your setup wisely though, because having a giant turbo for street can be bad. I've beaten "GT35" powered cars before with my little evo3 16g before because of my powerband vs theirs. I was also auto at the time.

 

[DR1665]

Sound advice, mate. Clearly, your buddy is into drag racing. That car makes pretty much dick for power below 4000rpm. I would hate to drive something like that to and from work. What a turd! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, and Timely (SMART) goals should be the first mod. Think of this as strategy.

Second mod is practice; driver skill. Think of this as tactics.

Super nice thing about these first two mods? They are damn near FREE and available to EVERYONE.

Mechanical upgrades are Mod 3: tools.

Personally, in this situation, I'd start simple. Box-stock MHI E316G & stock head on a healthy engine/gearbox with scalable tunability. Fuel it right, dial it in, dial yourself in, and make incremental progress. More fun to drive a slow car at 11/10 than a fast car at 6/10 (which is all too common these days).

Then you'll have a solid idea where you want to go next. Maybe you just port the 16G. Maybe you leave it alone and dial in some cams. Either way, you'll have a better understanding of what you want to do next with the car. Personally, I hate the thought of investing thousands into a car I can only really play with a few minutes a year. I'd rather run high 13s at the strip, hold my own at the autox, place toward the top at the rallyx, and finish ahead of dead last in an actual stage rally.

YMMV.

 

[EMX5636]

Unless you are looking for 600+whp, you don't really need a 35R to have a fun fast car. My 5857 PTE (30R sized) on a bone stock head (minus cams and springs) made 508whp at 31psi. Full boost mid 4K rpm and has a ton of midrange. Not what a 16G does, but still a fun street car. You don't really need a "built" head to make a lot of power, or have a good street setup.

 

[VR_IV_MR]

EMX5636 what kind of gas were you using when you hit 508whp?


Dont worry guys- I am not planning on using cheap crap. If I were going cheap, then I would be able to do a cheap turbo setup and a cheap head build right now at the same time. However since I plan on using quality stuff, either one of these parts of the build are a few thousand dollars. The way I look at it is like this: if I were to spend 300 a month on a leased car, thats 3,600 a year. So basically, I am budgeting myself to stay beneath this mark of spending $3,600 a year on the rebuild of 591. And since I'm dealing with a 21 year old car with 160k on it, I have to leave some room in case something were to break. Like I said, if I were to do a head with cams right now, I'd basically be tapped out- and if I were to blow my turbo, I would be JSB for a year until I can save to funds to rebuild the turbo- not cool. Also, since I have no hands-on experience I will be paying a shop to do these things and therefore I want to bang out entire sections at once. Which is why if I were to build the head, I would do everything at one time (cams, cam gears, etc) Eventually I want to get a second galant so that I can do the work on that one myself and learn as I go, but that would require lots of tools, time, and space- none of which I have right now. If all goes as planned, I should be done with the 591 build in five or six years from now.


There are quite a few reasons why I have chosen to go so large with the HTA86.
- compared to a DSM, the galant has extra weight
- plan on converting to an auto trans and a 2.2L engine
- I don't want to have to upgrade the turbo again
- I'm probably going to end up adding weight instead of doing weight reduction- so a bigger turbo will make up for the extra weight
- 93 oct + meth will be the the only juice it sees (unless e85 becomes available locally)


But back to my main question...

Since I can only afford to do one of the upgrades this year, which one would you do this year and which one would you do next year?

If you build the head this year, you have a e316g car with a built head. HOWEVER, now if your turbo blows you will be JSB for a year. (think theres approx 45k on my e3 16g)

If you build the turbo this year, you have a gt35 turbo with a large restriction coming from the stock head.

At first it seems like a no brainer to do the head first. The monkey wrench thrown in is the fact that if I choose to do this and I blow my turbo, I'll be JSB until I can get the new turbo setup. Maybe I should do nothing this year and then next year build the head and turbo at one time? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[GVR47111K]

Spend half on a p.o.s. beeetur and make the galant JSB while you build that s'om bitch up /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif

 

[4thStroke]

I don't think you understand how much it costs to prep a car to make 700awhp. The HTA86 will cost you $2200, a good tubular twin scroll manifold will cost you over $1000, twin wastegates will cost over $500. Then you have oil and coolant lines to deal with. The build never ends at the initial up front costs for the big items. You will spend another $600 to tune that setup.

If you plan on buying these parts used... I wish you the best.

 

[Racah15]

Yeah, I've spend over $20k on my talon and I might be pushing 650hp. It's really not cheap. At the rate of $3600 a year, that's will take you 5 or 6 years to buy the parts. Not to mention, you have to deal with shop costs, where as all my stuff was done by friends and I. I swapped my auto to a 5spd and I was quoted $6k by a local DSM shop. So in reality, if I would of taken it to a shop, I would have over $40k invested in my 2g. So at the rate of $3600, that's over 10 years to finally be done with your Galant.

If I was to rebuild my setup to be like what you want, this is what I'd buy. I wouldn't skimp on any of these, because YOU chose your weak link. I'd rather have axles be my weak link(which they are), than anything motor/tranny/turbo related.

Here is just a small rundown of what you will need.

Block: Bore, hone, O-ring and deck
New Pistons w/piston rings (your choice)
New rods with arp 2000 or better bolts (your choice, also remember you need a 100mm crank if you want to stroke it)
New main bolts
New OEM oil pump
New Oil pump gears
New Balance shaft elimination kit
New Oil filter housing (either 90's oil cooled, or Forward Facing [coolant cooled ones scare me, I've seen (and lost) a few engines from them])
Misc gaskets
_______________________
Head:
Mill head
New Ferrea Vales
New valve guides
New Kiggly/Magnus Beehive valve springs and titanium retainers
New Kelford 272/272 Or similar cams
New AEM Tru time (lmt. ed.) Cam gears
New valve stem seals
New 3g OEM lifters
- Minor port
____________________
Hard parts:

New HTA 86 turbocharger
New oil feed line
New -10 AN Return line
New Coolant lines
New t3 O2 housing
New T3 Shearer Fab Topmount
New Twin Tial Wastegates
New Custom 4" Intake (CANNOT go lower than that or you will choke the turbo)
New ETS FMIC system
New JMF Race SMIM
_________________________________
IMP. Misc stuff

New Oem, or Kevlar Timing belt
New OEM timing belt pulley set
New OEM Timing belt tensioner
Kiggly 6Bolt crank trigger system
New OEM Topend gasket set
New Felpro Permatorque Head gasket
New ARP L19 Head studs
15qts of Brad Penn Oil
__________________________________
Trans:
New Transmission build (IPT )
New Billet torque converter
Misc stuff
__________________________________
Fuel
New MAP 2000cc Fuel injectors
New -8 Fuel lines from tank to fuel rain back to tank
New Walbro 450 intank, and walbro 255 inline
New SI Fuel filter
New Misc Fittings
New Aeromotive A1000 Fuel pressure regulator
__________________________________
Engine management:
DSMLink V3 or AEM EMS v2
Speed density (obviously, this setup will overrun even a 2g maf)

Also, don't forget to add shop costs and Misc cost (usually around $500, misc fluids, forgotten/lost parts, etc)

This is not an end all be all list. There are different setups you could choose. This is what I would choose. I would not go USED on any mechanical part. Even so, I'd still not go used. You can skip ANY of these steps, just remember, now that is your weak link.

This is not a demotivational post, it should actually motivate you to do it right, and save up. What I did is purchase a beater car and JSB my 2g until it's done (been almost 2 years), but the wait is over now. That's the route I would do.
Goodluck on your hp ventures! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[EMX5636]

Quoting VR_IV_MR:
EMX5636 what kind of gas were you using when you hit 508whp?





I was running 93 pump + 1000cc's of meth. This isn't the limit for this setup though. I ran out of meth on the dyno, and forgot to bring more /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif. It made 470whp on a pretty conservative tune at 28psi on straight pump gas.

 

[4thStroke]

If he's going twin scroll, he might as well skip the T3 and go with a T4, or just single T3.

There is no need to o-ring a head or block with proper machine work and a good head gasket.

IPT can be hit or miss. People have had much better luck using Mark at Metro TRansmission in Woodland, WA.

 

[Racah15]

I hope you understand I gave him a list of just things that came to my mind. By far not an "only list". Those are just a few things I had listed.
Also understand O-ringing is for insurance reasons. Why do you think Buschur and Magnus guys do it. It wouldn't be pointless if it wasn't beneficial. Now I understand that they are running higher horsepower. Again it's insurance. Not required but beneficial. But that's just me. I guess that's why I have l19 headstuds on my stock daily driver.

 

[DynastyLCD]

OP: ever considered something like an FP3052 or FP3065? it wont be as bad with the initial cost as a twin scroll 3586 HTA will, as spencer pointed out. when you feel like you've maxed out those turbos, consider an HTA upgrade, which would be under $1000 and still give you more airflow and a nice new billet wheel.

earlier this year, i tried my 3052 (which is basically a GT3076r) back to back against a T3 PTE 6776 RSP, with a DNP manifold. the 6776 didnt make full 30 psi til 5500 RPM's, whereas the 3052 made the same 30 psi by 4000 RPM's. you'll have a LOT more fun with a bolt-on FP3052 or FP3065. both are awesome choices. i loved my 3052, and now i've moved onto the 3065, which is a great turbo as well. both make a good amount of power on the street, and both really perform well with decent spool up (4k - FP3052, 4.5k - FP3065)

i really wish i never traded my 3052 for the 3065... in a perfect world, i'd do a built engine setup for the 3065 and push it to its limits, and use the 3052 on my stock block setup for a daily driver.

 

[mitsuturbo]

Considering what a legit E3 16g costs nowadays, you're probably better off with something like a BB GT3076r (fp3052) or similar anyhow.

 

[EMX5636]

Quoting DynastyLCD:
OP: ever considered something like an FP3052 or FP3065? it wont be as bad with the initial cost as a twin scroll 3586 HTA will, as spencer pointed out. when you feel like you've maxed out those turbos, consider an HTA upgrade, which would be under $1000 and still give you more airflow and a nice new billet wheel.

earlier this year, i tried my 3052 (which is basically a GT3076r) back to back against a T3 PTE 6776 RSP, with a DNP manifold. the 6776 didnt make full 30 psi til 5500 RPM's, whereas the 3052 made the same 30 psi by 4000 RPM's. you'll have a LOT more fun with a bolt-on FP3052 or FP3065. both are awesome choices. i loved my 3052, and now i've moved onto the 3065, which is a great turbo as well. both make a good amount of power on the street, and both really perform well with decent spool up (4k - FP3052, 4.5k - FP3065)

i really wish i never traded my 3052 for the 3065... in a perfect world, i'd do a built engine setup for the 3065 and push it to its limits, and use the 3052 on my stock block setup for a daily driver.



This is kind of what I was suggesting above. It's "cool" to have a 35R (or equiv) on your car, but I've built/ridden/drove a lot of things with 4G63's in them, and for the street, it's tough to beat the feel of a 30R sized car (FP Red, PTE, whatever). If you're gonna race it, by all means go for the 650whp+ setup, just be ok with driving a Honda on the street till mid-high 4000rpm.

 

[4thStroke]

Quoting Racah15:
I hope you understand I gave him a list of just things that came to my mind. By far not an "only list". Those are just a few things I had listed.
Also understand O-ringing is for insurance reasons. Why do you think Buschur and Magnus guys do it. It wouldn't be pointless if it wasn't beneficial. Now I understand that they are running higher horsepower. Again it's insurance. Not required but beneficial. But that's just me. I guess that's why I have l19 headstuds on my stock daily driver.



Of course I understand. But you must also understand that it is very easy to butcher an o-ring job. It's messy and if you don't know what you are doing, you can do more harm than good. You must also understand that there are very many customer 700+hp cars running round without o-rings. I've hit 40psi spikes without lifting a or blowing a head gasket on a Mitsu MLS and non o-ringed head and standard ARPs. O-rings and L19s on a mild build can be used as an excuse to protect yourself against a shitty tune. A good tune that keeps the cylinder pressures low have no need for o-rings or L19s. I myself wouldn't mind L19s for the sake of getting nasty with my E85 tune, but it is very easy to tune to keep things in check. For a street car, reliability is more important than running on kill mode every time you take the car out. I understand that there can be a dog fight at any given moment. If the car is always on kill mode to the point it needs o-rings and L19s, the car WILL NOT last long. There are so may other variables that can kill a motor that those things will not save it from.

A lot of machine shops treat our motors like a small block chevy where they can normally get away with a poor finish on the block and head. Not only does the head need to be smooth, a lot of shops can't get them flat to the point in which our MLS gaskets can properly seal against.

I am not some chump who reads everything online, I have experienced these things personally or have seen friends and customers go through them. Take it for what its worth.

Buschur has dynod the 3052, DSM76 (3052 with their billet wheel), and the 3065 and plotted them against each other. The 3052 has a nice curve. The 3065 make more power with the 3582 compressor wheel, but the DSM76 has the curve of the 3052 and falling just shy of the peak horsepower of the 3065. Buschur made 610ftlbs and 609hp on his Mustang dyno with the HTA3076 (same as the DSM76 save for the bolt on housing) in a smaller T3 housing. At those boost and HP levels, the turbo was still making ~10whp per pound of boost. That kind of torque at that horsepower level is impressive. The DSM87/HTA3076 is a hell of a street turbo. I made 440awhp and saw 26psi at 4000RPM. It's a fun turbo for sure on pump, and ethanol brings it to a whole new level, it hits hard and pulls for a long time for a "small" turbo. I would consider it, especially since you can have that setup for a hell of a lot cheaper than a T3 or twin scroll T4.

If you insist on having a 35R, look into FPs bolt on 35R options. Their bolt on housing doesn't get enogh credit for what it has done and in capable of in the hands of any one of us.

 

[EMX5636]

4thstroke is dead-on. I've seen more coolant and oil leaks (external, not blown into cylinders) with o-rings/copper gaskets than a standard Mitsu/Cometic MLS gasket. They take the abuse. Unless you NEED it, I definitely wouldn't spend the money on it. But I've only built a few dozen 4G's, so my opinion might be useless.

 

[Racah15]

I agree you don't need o-rings. Infact, I am not even running them. I just suggested it for him because:
1:Extra insurance against blown headgaskets (if done correctly by a reputable shop, and no, it's not hard to get a shop to do it right. Just choose the right, experienced shop)
2: If he is going to get it tuned, chances are, the person who is going to tune it, will not give him a perfect tune. Tuners hardly ever get these tunes perfect unless you go to a DSM/Evo specialty place. Even then, some tunes are pretty bad. If I could get a log of some of the local shops tunes around here, and compare them to experienced dsmlink tuners, you will see that their tuning is subpar if best.

Again, I mentioned it for his insurance, not mine. I can get a better tune on my car, than any performance shop out here, (not much high performance shops out here), so I have no problem running no o-rings, and an MLS head-gasket. Yes, I have l19s on my race car too, but that's just insurance.On a conservative tune of 30psi, my friends head was starting to lift under standard ARPs and an MLS headgasket. Conservative meaning non aggressive timing and 12.0 fuel ratio (e85). He was running standard wisecos with high P2W clearance. Compression showed 130 across the board. So it wasn't high compression and it wasn't the tune. So as insurance, I got l19s for my car. Just insurance. I didn't lift my head, but I don't want to anyway.

Copper gaskets are junk. Who ever suggests copper gaskets needs to rethink their strategy. The fact you have to retorque your head more often than usual, and the fact they still leak, makes them a high maintenance, low success headgasket. I have seen maybe 1 success over 20 failures, and I cannot fathom the need to suggest a copper headgasket.

Just remember I just threw this out idea there. I never dis-agreed you don't need them , I just dis-agreed that they should be dismissed as an option. Everyone is assuming I am all for O-rings, and I run them, which is both wrong. I have seen them perform splendidly, and only offered it to the OP because he is having shops do everything.I just want to get the point set across, that Oring can perform greatly if done properly. They are just not for everyone and that it IS an option in this case. If the OP has built many 4g63s before, knows what works and what doesn't, knows how to do work properly and in order, and knows a vast knowledge in tuning, then by all means do what works for you. But since he is having a shop do work for him, I don't trust the shop to get a proper tune, proper torque, proper anything. Performance shops (here) are an "all around" kind of shops. No specialty of any kind, so that means there is no proper, experienced work. Now that may be different for all other performance shops, but I just don't trust a shop with my car what so ever.

Unless you hit up STM (since the OP is in NY), then just ignore everything I said. They are a very reputable tuning/performance shop.

I am not trying to argue here, I agree with you guys are saying. But please don't dismiss what I am saying, just take it as another option. No need for tension here guys, You guys are awesome

 

[VR_IV_MR]

EMX - "just be ok with driving a Honda on the street till mid-high 4000rpm." - im ok with this


Racah- I deleted all the lines from your list of things that I have done already. I was pretty happy as I just deleted line after line and wasn't left with much of a list at all, just the turbo and the head part, lol (which is why I started the thread) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I also changed some things that I have planned a little differently.

As for the head and block I will probably use GSC. I like the looks of their 2.2L setup with the 94mm crank. Plus he CNC's the head and the cams have a very good rep. But for now my 2L block is just fine with a fresh rebuild with every single gasket/nut/bolt/sensor/accessory replaced. Also my trans has a fresh rebuild with a 4spyder and a new clutch/flywheel- this setup will do fine for now. Please remember that I do not beat the sh*t out of this car. So the plan is to run a 2L setup with a manual trans and build the head/turbo to gain some power. Then eventually I will upgrade the block to the 2.2L and swap the trans to an automatic. But for now, my setup is ready for some power. I think I've decided to save the money up to do a massive upgrade and just do the head, turbo, int/exh manifolds, and speed density all at once.
____________________
Hard parts:

New HTA 86 turbocharger
New oil feed line
New -10 AN Return line
New Coolant lines
New t4 O2 housing
New T4 TS JMFab Top mount
New Twin Tial Wastegates
New Custom 4" Intake (CANNOT go lower than that or you will choke the turbo)
New Magnus Cast Intake manifold
OEM Q45 Throttle Body
Speed density setup




4thstroke- For a long time I was planning on going with an HTA 3076 setup but the more I thought about it, I just couldn't justify spending all the money I am spending on this car without getting the best I could. And at the end of it all, if I end up spending 40k on the total build over a period of 8 years or so, who cares? At that point I am going to have a car that was built to my own personal spec (and to the best of my knowledge) and have underneath probably 35k miles on the oldest parts of it. To be honest I'm upset that I bought these Tein HA's about a month or two before the Ohlins thread popped up. I am just going to let the Tein's rock out until they need a rebuild, then I will go for the Ohlins.

 

[EMX5636]

Then it seems you are ready to run with the big boys. Sorry if some of us seemed skeptical of your build, we get a lot of questions about stuff like this from people who don't have the money needed to follow through with a big build. Go at it, and take lots of pics and updates along the way.

Racah, sorry, wasn't trying to argue. I just see a lot of people go way overboard, and get more time/money into a build than they can handle, and end up parting out before it's ever finished.