What other COP can I use? I'm looking to make one for my VR4 using parts from any JDM engine. Saw some on BMW engines, do these work well?
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Coil on plug advantage
- Thread startermooserage
- Start date
atc250r
Staff member
I'm working on getting my NSX coils to work right. They fit very well and the older Acura 3.5 RL's have the same coil. The best part is there is an emissions update that the EPA made Honda/Acura do as a "punishment" for putting the OBD2 connector in the wrong place so I've got a bunch of them here but I won't sell them until I figure out why mine runs like crap under boost with them.
John
John
There are a lot of Toyotas that use Denso COP coils too.
Btw, the Intrepid coils are made by Denso also.
Btw, the Intrepid coils are made by Denso also.
Which model of Toyota? Is it the Camry or Lexus?
I found an old Honda V6 engine lying around at my mech's place... found some COPs. Will take one out for sample.
I found an old Honda V6 engine lying around at my mech's place... found some COPs. Will take one out for sample.
95 up Camry IIRC, Lexus, and some others. I'd have to look them up again.
What you are referring to as the igniter is that the transistor pack?
Igniter, transistor pack, ignition module...all the same thing.
Quote:
1. With a Snap On timing light you can usually lay the pickup on top of the #1 coil and get a signal to set the timing. I heard you can put the negative wire that goes to the coil inside the pickup that the spark plug wire would normally go into and get a signal that way too.
2. The Igniter is in between the ECU and the COP set up so the coils can not damage the ECU. They could probably damage the igniter but not the ECU.
John
Exactly Correct
Quote:
The COP coils for most cars are very reliable. Some manufacturers, especially Ford, use crap coils to begin with so they're constantly being replaced.
Not true. Coils are sold to Ford by Visteon, the manufacture designed the coil for Visteon. They, Visteon, even supply some of the components. Visteon is the only one allowed to sell this coil. There are several "counterfit" coils on the market, the copies have a much lower output.
The coils output is rated at 65mJ using 1.75 ms dwell at 12 volts. This above coil will charge to about 6 Amps. This coil has the "magnet" inside. The coil is made to charge very fast and should reach full charge in that time. They are both reliable and strong. Please refrain from posting things that you do not KNOW are accurate.
Quote:
I plan on using mine with the msd setup.
Personally, I would use a differn't/better ignition system. MSD will not configure the ignition into a true DIRECT FIRE ignition. Save your money untill you can purchase something better.
There is no direct advantage to running a COP system (without a GOOD CDI) over your factory system IF your factory system is in good running order. If your factory system is tired, old, needs replacing then a COP system WILL perform better.
This is a quick introduction to CDI.
https://www.galantvr4.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2&Number=251104&fpart=&PHPSESSID=
1. With a Snap On timing light you can usually lay the pickup on top of the #1 coil and get a signal to set the timing. I heard you can put the negative wire that goes to the coil inside the pickup that the spark plug wire would normally go into and get a signal that way too.
2. The Igniter is in between the ECU and the COP set up so the coils can not damage the ECU. They could probably damage the igniter but not the ECU.
John
Exactly Correct
Quote:
The COP coils for most cars are very reliable. Some manufacturers, especially Ford, use crap coils to begin with so they're constantly being replaced.
Not true. Coils are sold to Ford by Visteon, the manufacture designed the coil for Visteon. They, Visteon, even supply some of the components. Visteon is the only one allowed to sell this coil. There are several "counterfit" coils on the market, the copies have a much lower output.
The coils output is rated at 65mJ using 1.75 ms dwell at 12 volts. This above coil will charge to about 6 Amps. This coil has the "magnet" inside. The coil is made to charge very fast and should reach full charge in that time. They are both reliable and strong. Please refrain from posting things that you do not KNOW are accurate.
Quote:
I plan on using mine with the msd setup.
Personally, I would use a differn't/better ignition system. MSD will not configure the ignition into a true DIRECT FIRE ignition. Save your money untill you can purchase something better.
There is no direct advantage to running a COP system (without a GOOD CDI) over your factory system IF your factory system is in good running order. If your factory system is tired, old, needs replacing then a COP system WILL perform better.
This is a quick introduction to CDI.
https://www.galantvr4.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2&Number=251104&fpart=&PHPSESSID=
cheekychimp
Well-known member
Quote:
Personally, I would use a differn't/better ignition system. MSD will not configure the ignition into a true DIRECT FIRE ignition. Save your money untill you can purchase something better.
So which unit WOULD you suggest given your take on the CDI units? I'm not really familiar with much over the AEM and MSD units. Eventually I would like to use the J&S Safeguard. When I made enquiries before I got this reply.
Quote:
Paul:
Our 1ch/2ch unit will work. Mode switches on the front panel are used to configure the unit for one channel or two channel operation.
The unit connects between the ECU and the factory ignition module. It passes the dwell signal to the ignition module or coil on plug "smart coils", delaying the signal if knock is detected.
Smart coils do not use an ignition module, since they have one integrated with the coil itself.
If you were to use "dumb coils", you would need to retain the factory ignition module, since the 1ch/2ch J&S cannot drive dumb coils directly. For that, you woul need our four channel unit.
If you plan on using an MSD DIS-2 with dumb coils, you would also need the factory module, since the MSD triggers on the rising edge. The factory ignition module is an inverter, providing the correct triggering to the MSD.
If you were to use the AEM CDI-2 with dumb coils, you could eliminate the factory igniter, since the AEM lets you select rising or falling edge triggering.
Hope I haven't confused you.
John
So using the intrepid coils would you suggest going AEM and eliminating the factory module or is there a better option that allows the user to select rising or falling edge triggering?
Or would you just suggest getting a four channel J&S unit to run the coils independently and be done with it?
Paul
Personally, I would use a differn't/better ignition system. MSD will not configure the ignition into a true DIRECT FIRE ignition. Save your money untill you can purchase something better.
So which unit WOULD you suggest given your take on the CDI units? I'm not really familiar with much over the AEM and MSD units. Eventually I would like to use the J&S Safeguard. When I made enquiries before I got this reply.
Quote:
Paul:
Our 1ch/2ch unit will work. Mode switches on the front panel are used to configure the unit for one channel or two channel operation.
The unit connects between the ECU and the factory ignition module. It passes the dwell signal to the ignition module or coil on plug "smart coils", delaying the signal if knock is detected.
Smart coils do not use an ignition module, since they have one integrated with the coil itself.
If you were to use "dumb coils", you would need to retain the factory ignition module, since the 1ch/2ch J&S cannot drive dumb coils directly. For that, you woul need our four channel unit.
If you plan on using an MSD DIS-2 with dumb coils, you would also need the factory module, since the MSD triggers on the rising edge. The factory ignition module is an inverter, providing the correct triggering to the MSD.
If you were to use the AEM CDI-2 with dumb coils, you could eliminate the factory igniter, since the AEM lets you select rising or falling edge triggering.
Hope I haven't confused you.
John
So using the intrepid coils would you suggest going AEM and eliminating the factory module or is there a better option that allows the user to select rising or falling edge triggering?
Or would you just suggest getting a four channel J&S unit to run the coils independently and be done with it?
Paul
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I have some so called "smart coils" and plan to run them without the factory igniter, but I'm not smart enough to figure out the circuitry needed to retain the factory tach signal which comes from the igniter.
cheekychimp
Well-known member
Quote:
I'll stick with the factory stuff, thank you.
Harry, I think there is a lot to be said for keeping things simple but I have to say I'm a little surprised that the J&S isn't more popular at the entusiasts level. It isn't a cheap unit and admittedly it might not be worth it on a stock setup but for any modded vehicle it potentially appears to offer more performance in terms of horsepower per dollar than a lot of other modifications.
I think most 'seasoned' members would agree that 'it's all in the tune' and that bad fuelling or knock that results in pulled timing can make a 'killer' setup fall flat on it's face in terms of performance.
I don't know that I would necessarily put this on the car until I had basic long term fuel trims and a decent fuel map at WOT worked out, but once I start turning the boost up and trying to advance the timing, I know I am looking at one of these. Per cylinder knock control surely has to be the way to go.
Paul.
I'll stick with the factory stuff, thank you.
Harry, I think there is a lot to be said for keeping things simple but I have to say I'm a little surprised that the J&S isn't more popular at the entusiasts level. It isn't a cheap unit and admittedly it might not be worth it on a stock setup but for any modded vehicle it potentially appears to offer more performance in terms of horsepower per dollar than a lot of other modifications.
I think most 'seasoned' members would agree that 'it's all in the tune' and that bad fuelling or knock that results in pulled timing can make a 'killer' setup fall flat on it's face in terms of performance.
I don't know that I would necessarily put this on the car until I had basic long term fuel trims and a decent fuel map at WOT worked out, but once I start turning the boost up and trying to advance the timing, I know I am looking at one of these. Per cylinder knock control surely has to be the way to go.
Paul.
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Quote:
Not true. Coils are sold to Ford by Visteon, the manufacture designed the coil for Visteon. They, Visteon, even supply some of the components. Visteon is the only one allowed to sell this coil. There are several "counterfit" coils on the market, the copies have a much lower output.
The coils output is rated at 65mJ using 1.75 ms dwell at 12 volts. This above coil will charge to about 6 Amps. This coil has the "magnet" inside. The coil is made to charge very fast and should reach full charge in that time. They are both reliable and strong. Please refrain from posting things that you do not KNOW are accurate.
I've worked in the aftermarket parts business for seven years now. The one single ignition coil that I sell more then all others combined is the COP coil for Ford Triton motors. These coils are terribly unreliable. This is one reason Ford is currently paying well over $100 million in warranty claims to replace defective OE parts. Although Ford is not the only manufacturer that has had problems with component quality. Just because it is manufactured by the OE supplier does not neccessarily mean it is a quality product. I have yet to see a single one of the replacement coils I've sold come back as defective. Also, I can easily count on one hand the number of times I've been asked to sell a coil to replace a Denso COP unit. My post was based on my experience. One coil that is in very high demand because of a high failure rate tells me it is a poor design or poorly manufactured, regardless of what its output "should" be or what it "should" do.
Not true. Coils are sold to Ford by Visteon, the manufacture designed the coil for Visteon. They, Visteon, even supply some of the components. Visteon is the only one allowed to sell this coil. There are several "counterfit" coils on the market, the copies have a much lower output.
The coils output is rated at 65mJ using 1.75 ms dwell at 12 volts. This above coil will charge to about 6 Amps. This coil has the "magnet" inside. The coil is made to charge very fast and should reach full charge in that time. They are both reliable and strong. Please refrain from posting things that you do not KNOW are accurate.
I've worked in the aftermarket parts business for seven years now. The one single ignition coil that I sell more then all others combined is the COP coil for Ford Triton motors. These coils are terribly unreliable. This is one reason Ford is currently paying well over $100 million in warranty claims to replace defective OE parts. Although Ford is not the only manufacturer that has had problems with component quality. Just because it is manufactured by the OE supplier does not neccessarily mean it is a quality product. I have yet to see a single one of the replacement coils I've sold come back as defective. Also, I can easily count on one hand the number of times I've been asked to sell a coil to replace a Denso COP unit. My post was based on my experience. One coil that is in very high demand because of a high failure rate tells me it is a poor design or poorly manufactured, regardless of what its output "should" be or what it "should" do.
Paul, I would use Autronic, MoTec, M&W, or an analog Bosch (analog will not work in our applicaiton) before I used anything else MSD, Crane, Jacobs, AEM etc built. M&W makes SOME of the ignitions for MoTeC, and the Autronic is a smilar product to the M&W on an older design bord. End result is the same, just the Autronic is physically a bigger unit. The Bosh is the least reliable but only because it is analog and is STILL more reliable then anything else I refuse to use. I have several horror stories to go along with each unit I refuse to use. As a manufactured piece I know that sometimes something can go wrong once in a while, but when there is a TREND in the product lineup ... that is more then a simple error in manufacturing, that is an error in design.
If you retain the Factory ECU then you can only use a 2ch system. You can not get a 4ch signal from the ECU that only has 2 outputs. Not to mention, there is no performance gain to be had by using a 4ch over a 2ch wasted spark.
Please refer to my previously linked post to see how direct fire CDI is supose to work, then compair that to how MSD etc want you to wire your system. Is it a direct fire CDI or is it an Inductive ignition with an expensive igniter? If you put a GOOD low primary resistance coil on a MSD or one of the other untis I do not like they will FRY!
Paul send me a PM if things are still no clear.
Refer to my previous linked post if you are unsure if you need an expensive aftermarket ignition system.
dsm drew, exactly, you are selling the aftermarket coil. Coils go bad, they do. But when you sell an aftermarket and KNOWN inferior product, it will fail sooner. Please don't confuse replacement of parts not manufactured by visteon as visteon products. They are not. The visteon coil for the Triton V8 is a very good coil, the aftermarket verion is a $6 piece of garbage.
If you retain the Factory ECU then you can only use a 2ch system. You can not get a 4ch signal from the ECU that only has 2 outputs. Not to mention, there is no performance gain to be had by using a 4ch over a 2ch wasted spark.
Please refer to my previously linked post to see how direct fire CDI is supose to work, then compair that to how MSD etc want you to wire your system. Is it a direct fire CDI or is it an Inductive ignition with an expensive igniter? If you put a GOOD low primary resistance coil on a MSD or one of the other untis I do not like they will FRY!
Paul send me a PM if things are still no clear.
Refer to my previous linked post if you are unsure if you need an expensive aftermarket ignition system.
dsm drew, exactly, you are selling the aftermarket coil. Coils go bad, they do. But when you sell an aftermarket and KNOWN inferior product, it will fail sooner. Please don't confuse replacement of parts not manufactured by visteon as visteon products. They are not. The visteon coil for the Triton V8 is a very good coil, the aftermarket verion is a $6 piece of garbage.
cheekychimp
Well-known member
Yeah, wishful thinking on my part to go sequential. There is nothing wrong with wasted spark it is just that the Safeguard can't handle wasted spark on it's own without either the factory ignitor or another CDI module to replace the factory unit. Anyway, you have a PM.
