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Alternator Rewire

GVR-4

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Messages
2,610
Location
Asheville, NC USA
Hertz, the 175 amp fuse is dedicated to the 1 gauge positive lead. The 100 amp stock fuse is still in place for the two 10 gauge positive wires. I did move that connection over to the right one terminal in order to use the left most terminal for the 145 amp fuse. Again, a pic would be much better than trying to describe it. I'll get one up later this week.
 

Hertz

Staff member
Joined
Jul 29, 2002
Messages
13,501
Location
Chicago, IL
So you moved the original ALT into the ABS location? /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/smile.gif

Anyone have any problems with my connecting my new lead to the existing fuse?
 

Rausch

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
12,049
Location
Cleveland, OH
^ nope....new wires replacing old ones should not change a thing! /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/grin.gif
 

Hertz

Staff member
Joined
Jul 29, 2002
Messages
13,501
Location
Chicago, IL
Okay, so I purchased from Autozone a cable (labeled as alternator to starter)... 5' long, terminals looked like giant spades with a hole punched in them (not sure what that's called). The hole was a tad larger than the post/bolts on the car (both 10mm). I used a slightly larger washer to help maximize the contact surface area.

5' might be just a tad short, I wasn't able to run the route exactly, but I did it all without taking anything out of the engine bay. Perhaps when I finally remove all of my A/C components, getting the condenser out of the way will make it easier to follow the desired stock route.

So, results... It looks like I picked up 0.2 or 0.3v. I still don't see as much voltage as I'd like, but perhaps I'll address grounds soon.
 

toybreaker

iconoclast
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,581
One interesting anomoly of Mitsubishi alternators is their voltage/temperature relationship.

Many vehicles have temperature compensation built into their systems, but for some reason, the 4g63t charging system carries it to an extreme. It's almost like they didn't spec a different alternator/voltage regulator/temperature compensation for the turbo cars, and just used a generic application without taking into account the insane heat levels in a turbo vehicles engine compartment.

I found this chart in the factory service/technical data sheets.

14.2~15.4v at -4 degrees (f)

13.9~14.9v at 68 degrees (f)

13.4~14.6v at 140 degrees (f)

13.1~14.5v at 176 degrees (f)

These are the voltages measured at the back of the alternator, on the stud where the wire attaches that runs to the fuse box.

What it means is that temperature increases, voltage decreases .

In the real world, it makes checking the factory charging system a little more complicated, as the technician must take temperature into account.

The chain store mullets have a little toaster that does a decent job testing voltage/current on the vehicle. Problem is, most of them have no idea how to use it, and routinely condemn systems that are within the factory tolerances... /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/bawling.gif. They will then sell you a total p.o.s. that doesn't have as radical a temp. comp. curve and send you on your way. (And you get to practice swapping alternators in "scenic" parking lots until you get a good one... /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/banghead.gif)

Checking the system can also be done with a decent voltmeter, and some forethought.

You want to check the system for voltage and current. Start with all the accesories off.

Stone cold start up should be mid to high 14v.

Warming up anywhere around 14.5v ish is good.

Hot, at a fast idle (~1500 +), it should be (hopefully) low 14v, high 13v...

Now, boost it around a bit and let it drop to the slow, hot idle. You'll see the voltage sag to ~mid 13v, to low 13v. (On a really hot day, at a real slow idle, it's not uncommon to see high 12v's with any kind of load on the system.)

(one interesting thing about the vr4 specific e-prom is that the *slightly* higher idle rpm speed programed in vs. the T/E/L/ helps hot idle voltage sag a ton!)

So, anyway, that chart is about the temp at the alternator case, as that's where the regulator is. If you're blasting it with some serious heat, (no heatshields/exhaust leaks, etc) I could see the voltage falling off the bottom of the chart, with a perfectly healthy alternator .

And, it's also about the voltage at the back of the alternator.

The battery voltage may be totally different than the voltage at the back of the alternator due to voltage drop.

With the engine off, the alternator and battery will read exactly the same

With no load, just sitting there idleing, the "hotel load" will cause the beginning of a loaded voltage drop. That load (fuel pump, ignition, etc) is ~around~ 10 or 15 amps (ish). The battery and alternator voltages will be still be ~close~, but the battery may be down a couple of tenths of a volt, compared to the alternator

Now, turn on the headlights, fog lights, a/c, with fan on high, rear window defogger, and you have a ~50~75~ amp load. This fully loaded voltage, measured at the alternator and again at the battery may vary up to .5v, or more.

That number is your charging system voltage drop.

If it's just a couple of tenths, you're good to go.

Around .5v and up, you can start to see some benefits from a rewire.

Above a volt, and you will definately be pleased with the result! /ubbthreads/images//graemlins/worthy.gif

With everything on, some cars with trunk mounted batteries will sag almost to resting battery voltage (~12.8v) at a HOT, slow idle.

If I had a dollar for every mysterious, unsolvable miss/fuel cut/high rpm stutter that was due to voltage sag, I'd be rolling a lot nicer bucket, that's for sure! (when the voltage sags, fuel pumps slow down, ignition gets weaker, etc...)
 

Hertz

Staff member
Joined
Jul 29, 2002
Messages
13,501
Location
Chicago, IL
I wasn't convinced that stereo wire would have adequate heat protection. Ideally I'd source some ceramic sleeve or something.

Well, I *thought* everything was good yesterday. But, this morning I opened the door to find that the mousetrap didn't run. I shrugged it off as my door switch possibly being flakey, but then I struggled with the window switch for a minute before I realized that I had no accessories.

Oops.

All I did was replace the run from the B post on the alternator to the fusible link ALT. If I recall the diagram correctly, the plug on the alternator runs the accessories right? I still had brake lights, signals, etc.

Edit: BTW, I see at most 13.8v at cold start. It was 13.5v.
 
Last edited:

toybreaker

iconoclast
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,581
I don't have my gvr4 specific diagram in front of me, but on the 1gT/E/L/ models, everything not fused at the battery, (or the inny leg of the fuse box,) won't work if the alternator fuse is popped/offline.

Did they work when the engine was running?
 

Quoting GVR-4:
Here are some more pics. Hertz, I was wrong. The two cables do follow the stock routing for the harness under the radiator. I zip tied the two cables to the harness in some places. Also the fuse is a 175 amp fuse, not 145. It's more visible in these pics. I couldn't get any of the alternator to turn out without crawling under the car- maybe another time. The red wire is positive and the brown one is the negative. I just anchored the alternator ground to the chasis under the same bolt that grounds the negative lead from the battery.











not to bring up another thread but this makes me wonder, what ground are you talking about? where does it connect to?
 

iceman69510

Turn Right Racing
Staff member
Joined
Mar 5, 2001
Messages
10,964
Location
Michigan
First question, I don't know.

Second question, there is a body ground location stock right below the main fuse box there where he apparently attached it. Stock negative cable has an attachment there as well, in the middle of the cable.
 

fastasleep

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2005
Messages
1,779
Location
Christiansburg, VA
Quoting spooling92vr4:
ive seen people do this before.. they just run a bigger gauge wire from the positive on the battery to the alt seems to work out.. maybe you should try one of those grounding strap kits?



So, is that really it? Disconnect the wire with the red cover over it on the alt. and disconnect its other end showen below:



and just run a 4awg wire from my battery in the trunk directly to the connection under the red cover on the alternator?
 

toybreaker

iconoclast
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,581
Some serious thought must go into rewiring the alternator/battery current paths.



In this picture, I see a potentially large issue.

If this fuse does "pop", the live end connected to the alternator will still have power on it (with the engine running).

Many times, this style of fuse will completely seperate, and the wire (with half a fuse) will fall away from the connection. The unprotected bare metal surfaces of the bolt will be begging to find a ground. If that does occur, you're pretty much going to have a fire. Either the alternator itself will light up because it's got an easy place to put whatever current it can make into (effectively) a dead short, or the wire itself will get pissed off and red hot.

I've always favored circuit breakers for that reason.

When the circuit is overloaded, the breaker pops open, and that's that.

Correct the problem, close the breaker, and you're on your way.

Many members here use a breaker in the trunk, as close to the battery as possible to protect the wire heading forward.

They then terminate the other end on the car side of the primary battery fuse in the battery terminal fuse block.

Doing it this way ensures if there's a problem coming forward, the breaker will open.

If there's a problem going rearward, the battery/alt fuse will blow open. Because it's mechanically retained in the terminal block, the wire end will not drop out and cause problems.

Hope that helps. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Just understand that both ends of the alternator/battery wire need to be protected, and you'll be fine.
 

Polish

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2005
Messages
8,936
Location
NE, IN
I am with you TB, if you are going to do this Mod fuse both ends as close to the source as possible. I will also add, use quality wire/connectors and those of proper gauge. Remember, the electrical system is only as good as it's weakest link.
 
Last edited:

toybreaker

iconoclast
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,581
^^^Thanks...

If there's a way to screw this up, I've done it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

My favorite was when I put my z car into a snow bank, and a loose 12mm wrench bridged the battery terminals in the back of the car.

Melted the fawkin terminals in a nano second. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jawdrop.gif

Moral to that story, make sure the battery terminals are protected from a bridge type short

The battery boxes Jegs/Summit sell with the lids are the best bet for securing the battery in the trunk. Make an attachment to the floor, and then a ratcheting tie down strap around the case will secure it. (even in a roll over.)

Moving the battery to the trunk has it's hazards, and it's a wise man who considers all the angles.

Make sure to put some thought into the ground path as well. The end terminated to the chassis must have a good contact as well, or you'll get "mystery" voltage drops leading to high rpm voltage sag/misfires/etc.

Good luck, and don't let me scare you.

This mod has some serious advantages from a weight/space perspective.

It just needs to be thought all the way thru in order to achieve a problem free installation. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
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