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3000gt trailing arm install while keeping ABS and 4WS


Whoodoo
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 924987 posted 08/23/10 06:34 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I picked up a set of 2g 3kgt brakes and trailing arms about a month ago and am trying to get everything I'll need together in order to install them while still keeping the ABS and 4WS. To that end, I have a few questions.

I pulled the trailing arms from a 3kgt VR4 and was wondering can anyone confirm the 4WS will still work?

As far as getting the ABS to work, I have been gathering info on ABS ring tooth counts. As far as I understand, the 91 GVR4 ABS ECU looks for a 2:1 front:rear ratio. Later model T/E/L ABS ECUs look for a 1:1 ratio. Also, the T/E/L tooth count is 47f/47r.

I counted the teeth on the 3kgt trailing arm and it had 47 valleys... meaning it has 48 teeth? Please please please someone tell me that I'm crazy and the T/E/L is the same: 47 valleys - 48 teeth.

IF the 3kgt trailing arm has the same number of teeth as the T/E/L, then I'll be able to keep the ABS simply by making sure there is an ABS ring on the front 5 lug hub that I will need to swap and by putting in the ABS ECU from a T/E/L.



62/2k

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RedTwo
Rangi Kiwi


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925006 posted 08/23/10 07:37 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I was looking into this last night
The service manual states the GTO has 47 teeth, so, in theory, if you fit 1G ABS front hubs and use the 1G ABS computer it should work.
4WS is a maybe, I've got both 4WS racks sitting in the scrap pile at the old house (sadly under the scrap from the old bathroom) so I might be able to check them side by side over the weekend but I don't recall there being any massive differences in length.

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H05TYL
Hover/Stand/Bend


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925017 posted 08/23/10 08:03 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting Whoodoo:


I counted the teeth on the 3kgt trailing arm and it had 47 valleys... meaning it has 48 teeth?






Where did the extra tooth come from?



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mitsuturbo
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925054 posted 08/23/10 10:54 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I may be pulling my rear subframe before too long, for renovation, cleaning, and paint. If you need any measurements or to make any comparisons, you're probably not too far from me. Of course you can always check out either of my cars for comparison. Of course, i'm assuming you don't have a 4ws rack in your G, correct?

I honestly don't believe in deleting 4ws on these cars unless i were to go full drag.



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Whoodoo
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925093 posted 08/24/10 01:13 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I have 4WS and want to keep it. I just want to make sure the mounting location on the trailing arm for the rear steering arms is the same. I could get under my car and measure but I just wanted to see if anyone knew off hand.



62/2k


Edited by Whoodoo (08/24/10 01:14 AM)

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RedTwo
Rangi Kiwi


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925102 posted 08/24/10 03:15 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Sorry, don't know off hand as that stuff met the noisy end of an angle grinder but I can't see why it would be in a hugely different place, leverage, force, moments and all that jargon...

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belize1334
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925204 posted 08/24/10 03:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting H05TYL:

Quoting Whoodoo:


I counted the teeth on the 3kgt trailing arm and it had 47 valleys... meaning it has 48 teeth?






Where did the extra tooth come from?




A linear tooth pattern (like a saw) has a tooth on each end and thus one more tooth than valleys between. But, in a circular arrangement the last tooth is also the first tooth so there are the same number of teeth as spaces between them. 47 valleys = 47 teeth.



Roger B. Scott
'91 Belize Green

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Whoodoo
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925394 posted 08/25/10 09:38 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Duh! thanks



62/2k

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Whoodoo
buff guys = good time but my dream is to fondle 1051
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925495 posted 08/25/10 04:36 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
New solution: why not just swap out the rear axle assembly? I don't have access to CAPS so, instead, I do a price comparison on JNZ's parts search. It seems as thought both the inner and outer bearings are the same, so I could just swap out the axle and... voila! I would have everything I want while eliminating getting a 4 bolt rear, ABS ECU swap, getting 5 lug wheels, etc.



62/2k

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mitsuturbo
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925503 posted 08/25/10 04:48 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
isn't the rear end on a 3k much wider than that of a gvr4?
i know they share some parts, but i believe things are spaced out a bit in the center, around the diff



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H05TYL
Hover/Stand/Bend


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925534 posted 08/25/10 06:51 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
3kgt rear axles are longer than gvr4 ones, about 35mm each iirc.



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gaylantvr4
Joe


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925584 posted 08/25/10 10:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
the active toe bushings are drilled bigger than the tel and gvr4



998/1000

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mitsuturbo
Banthony
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925587 posted 08/25/10 10:43 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting H05TYL:

3kgt rear axles are longer than gvr4 ones, about 35mm each iirc.



I'm pretty sure the diff is wider too, and the subframe it bolts into has more steel between the diff and where the suspension mounts up.



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Whoodoo
buff guys = good time but my dream is to fondle 1051
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925615 posted 08/26/10 01:42 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Awe shoot. I think you're right. After looking at pictures of peoples' 5 lug swaps I do think the 3kgt axles are longer. Well there goes that idea.



62/2k

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RedTwo
Rangi Kiwi


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925621 posted 08/26/10 01:48 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting gaylantvr4:

the active toe bushings are drilled bigger than the tel and gvr4



Same for the camber adjustment but it's only a 2mm difference in each case. You can either make a sheath or let friction and compressive force keep it in place and live with it

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925658 posted 08/26/10 08:55 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting H05TYL:

3kgt rear axles are longer than gvr4 ones, about 35mm each iirc.




A bit of negative camber and some flares will sort that out ... or you could just go hella flush!






Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!

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H05TYL
Hover/Stand/Bend


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925664 posted 08/26/10 09:47 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Er no.

If you use GTO trailing arms like RedTwo did you still use the vr4 axles. The trailing arm mounts on the GTO subframe must be further apart than on the vr4 one.
You could of course fit the whole GTO subframe (with some difficulty?).

Those wheels don't look too dissimilar in size to what I've got on mine, I'd guess 9" or 9.5" +12 to +20ish, narrower tyres than I'm running though.
Once you lowered that the camber gain would have them pretty close to fitting, a slight roll and some trimming under the rear bumper and they'd be fine.



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Whoodoo
buff guys = good time but my dream is to fondle 1051
62/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925766 posted 08/26/10 04:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I think there may have been some confusion. I was reading through RedTwo's posts in the australian's build thread and it came to my attention that you may be talking about the drive axle. the part that goes between the axle cups. I am talking about swapping the wheel axle. That is the part that is inside the trailing arm and rides within the wheel bearings.

This whole assembly



62/2k

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RedTwo
Rangi Kiwi


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925824 posted 08/26/10 07:58 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I thought that was called the 'spindle' any-who... yes, that is how most people do a 5 lug swap, but sourced from a 5 lug (92+?) 1G T/E/L. I can't recall off the top of my head if it's actually the same part - probably isn't as the GTO spindle will be longer (+10-20 each side) to include the drum brake.

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Whoodoo
buff guys = good time but my dream is to fondle 1051
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925825 posted 08/26/10 08:00 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Well if it doesn't rain tomorrow like it did all day today I'll pull a spindle from the stock trailing arm and see how it stacks up.



62/2k

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925837 posted 08/26/10 08:59 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Are GTO axles any beefier? I really have no experience with GTOs other than the rear swap I did and as stated we used the VR4 axles. So HO5TYL are you suggesting that with some 'massaging' the GTO axles/entire subframe could be made to work? It's an interesting concept. I'm not sure how ratios etc would work out but I was given to understand the rear diff on the GTO is considerably beefier. As has been stated in other posts I think you can try to overcomplicate things but I also thought getting the guts of a GTO transfer case onto a VR4 would be a good move!



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!

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H05TYL
Hover/Stand/Bend


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925897 posted 08/27/10 12:17 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
non turbo GTO axles have the same splines (and axle dia) as evo/4-bolt mech lsd. Turbo GTO's have much bigger axles and splines.



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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925913 posted 08/27/10 02:10 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
But realistically could you fit a turbo GTO rear end in a VR4? What would be the obstacles?

Track too wide?
Rear Diff ratio?
Custom Rear Driveshaft section?



Getting old sucks ... but it sure beats the alternative !!!

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raptorWagon
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 925991 posted 08/27/10 12:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I think it may be too wide, but here's a couple pics to help with the comparison
GVR4 subframe

GTO VR4 subframe



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RedTwo
Rangi Kiwi


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 926084 posted 08/27/10 06:37 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
The GTO subframe is fairly different. It's longer (north south) and the mounts are wider apart. In your crazy 'let's just fab it up and rock everyone's world' world that shouldn't be too much of a problem

The suspension arms are the same length as the VR4 but they are mounted further from the diff so the axles are longer (a good 35mm each side). In turn this makes suspension a bit funny, the mounts (top and bottom) are the same but now the lower mount is further out.

The diffs come in 3.307 and 3.545 ratio and have a different mounting flange for the driveshaft - that should be easy enough to swap and driveshaft length would be controlled by where the subframe is mounted, see point from above

The diff mounts in a convaluted way to the subframe (refer attached picture from ASA): the mustache brace (34225) mounts to the rear diff cover with 3 bolts and then links horizontally to the subframe, where the red arrows are pointing, rather than the chassis like our cars. The two rear mounts in that photo above are integral to the subframe.
The diff body is attached to two supports (34225L/R) which are then mounted to the subframe, a little further towards the rear on the two struts marked with green arrows. There are *no* vertical connections on the diff and *no* vertical connections between the diff and subframe.

I'm sure some fancy welding would solve it pretty easily.


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