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4G63 vs 4B11 what are the difference?


ihatefall
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 808712 posted 07/07/09 04:18 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I have been trying to google this up but it usually just leads to some forum with members being like "4G63 for life FTW" or "they switch for a reason 4B11, rub one out" or arguement about the 4G63 having proven it's self and it's too early to tell if the 4B11 is going to be the beast that the 4G63 was.
Well that is all good but I can come to that own. I want to know the differences!

Now as we have see, Mitsubishi upgrades don't always mean 'Better' (cough cough 7 bolt cough cough)

So what I want to know is what are the REAL differences?
I know the 4B11 isn't cast iron like the 4g63 is.

What else is different?

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 808715 posted 07/07/09 04:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Not sure if this is the appropriate place for this discussion, but there's an entire
wiki article. So from that, there's a timing chain (yay) and the head on the new cars uses a bucket/shim design instead of lifters.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 808720 posted 07/07/09 04:46 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It has a open deck block like a Honda motor. Which means it will have to be sleeved to do really big boost.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 808729 posted 07/07/09 05:15 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
From what I have read, the 4b11 turbo blocks have extra webbing and can hold quite a bit of boost.

I know for a fact that it can hold over 20psi. A Honda block can't do that (for very long anyway).



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 808766 posted 07/07/09 08:19 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Hmm, 4B12 crank in 4B11 block??



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 808769 posted 07/07/09 08:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting ihatefall:

So what I want to know is what are the REAL differences?
I know the 4B11 isn't cast iron like the 4g63 is.

What else is different?


Way more differences than similarities. Most have already been mentioned short of the turbo swap which means head casting is 180 different.
The now defunct Turbo magazine ran some great articles over two months on the deltas.
AMS has done tons of work with the 4B11, maybe Mark will chime in later.



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Edited by ktmrider (07/07/09 08:26 PM)

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Dialcaliper
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 808776 posted 07/07/09 08:57 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The 4B11 is basically a completely different engine. The deck is "semi-closed" which means it still has some deck reinforcement, not like a completely open honda block where the sleeves are self-supporting. Everything has been revised to what *should* be better in terms of reliability, performance and emissions. Timing chain, solid lifters, bigger intake valves, MIVEC on both cams, etc. The only performance downgrade is smaller exhaust valves, which were used mainly to meet emissions restrictions.

Also, the block *is* sleeved with plain grey cast iron from the factory, so it's decently robust without resorting to custom ductile iron sleeves. A recent article about an HKS Evo X (latest issue of Modified Mag) has some HKS folks quoted as saying they think the stock 4B11 block is good for close to 500hp without modification, but that the stock internals are the weak point - mainly because the internals are even lighter than the 4G63 - partly since the engine and valvetrain are rated by Mitsubishi for a rev limit of 8000 rpm.

This kind of makes sense in the context of the WRC environment it was designed for (300hp with a restrictor, with about 500 ft-lbs of torque). Forged internals are allowed, but modification of the block is not (except for normal oversizing).



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Edited by Dialcaliper (07/07/09 08:58 PM)

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Zenith
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 808978 posted 07/08/09 01:30 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I do remember AMS fielding a white EVO X GSR in last years USCC, and I think it made about 475 whp on the dyno tests.
I have those issues of Turbo in my girlfriend's car, and can recall that there are no balance shafts, and that they use bushings in the cam journals, but cant remember if it's on all the journals or just on the pulley side.


Edited by Zenith (07/08/09 01:33 PM)

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ihatefall
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 809079 posted 07/08/09 06:19 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
the timing chain is great but... an aluminum one? I ride bikes alot and aluminum/ carbon = catastrophic failure whereas as steel starts to break you can feel it.

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 809171 posted 07/08/09 10:46 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Don't forget that chains stretch a lot over time as well, ask anyone that has done an old V8 timing chain. So while it may not break, the performance of your motor will degrade to the point of straight up being sluggish.

Also, the downsides of chains, they are usually a bit tougher to change out, a lot more expensive, and have a high failure rate from the tentioners. Nissan, Dodge and others were known for the oil-pressure fed tentioner failing and causing the chain to skip.

I'm still interested in the 4B11 future, it has a lot to live up to and thus far has impressed. Will it be able to take the abuse that the 4G63 can handle? Time will tell. But, having Dodge, Hyundai and Mitsu cars powered by the same motor means a metric buttload of parts available which is an incredibly intelligent move imo.

Wiz



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 809338 posted 07/09/09 12:38 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I thought the evo x was no longer a rally car? Just a bloated evo/ galant now?

This kind of makes sense in the context of the WRC environment it was designed for (300hp with a restrictor, with about 500 ft-lbs of torque). Forged internals are allowed, but modification of the block is not (except for normal oversizing).





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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 809380 posted 07/09/09 03:22 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Tanner Foust seems to be doing well in Rally America with his Evo.





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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 809416 posted 07/09/09 05:45 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I believe they said almost the same thing when the Evo VII was released based on the new Cedia chassis, after they stopped making Evo VI to Group A specs. That was probably a bigger change to the character of the car, even though the engine did not change as drastically.

The Evo X is still built to be competitive in Group N rally, and more importantly, even though the WRC cars use a completely unique chassis, they still have to use an engine based on the production car.

Even companies like Ford who built AWD WRC cars that did not return any technology to cars available to the public are still using what is a heavily modified version of a 2.0L Duratec engine (granted, with an added turbocharger), with basically the same crank, block and lubrication system found on street cars (That's about all that's left even when comparing WRC and Group N Evos)

It's kind of a moot point now since Mitsubishi and many others have dropped out of WRC, but they and Subaru are still strongly in support of production based Group N rally.


Quoting G:

I thought the evo x was no longer a rally car? Just a bloated evo/ galant now?

This kind of makes sense in the context of the WRC environment it was designed for (300hp with a restrictor, with about 500 ft-lbs of torque). Forged internals are allowed, but modification of the block is not (except for normal oversizing).








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Edited by Dialcaliper (07/09/09 05:46 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 809519 posted 07/10/09 01:23 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
The 4B1x series was heavily based apon the Hyundai Theta II engines, which is the engine powering the new Hyundai Genesis 2.0 Turbo coupe. The main difference is the cylinder head design, and the Hyundai engine uses a different rod and piston combo, and the Hyundai engine is only 2 bolt mains while the Mitsubishi 4B11 is four bolt mains.

Here's a technical video of the 4B11 - click

bottom end a 4B11, showing four bolt mains (with ARP main studs fitted):



and the Hyundai Theta II engine bottom end in comparison:




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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 809598 posted 07/10/09 12:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
4b11t.org Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart 4b11



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Edited by Hertz (03/26/10 07:54 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 810449 posted 07/13/09 01:15 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting Dialcaliper:

.... That was probably a bigger change to the character of the car, even though the engine did not change as drastically.



Even companies like Ford who built AWD WRC cars that did not return any technology to cars available to the public are still using what is a heavily modified version of a 2.0L Duratec engine (granted, with an added turbocharger), with basically the same crank, block and lubrication system found on street cars (That's about all that's left even when comparing WRC and Group N Evos)







You are mostly right, but the engine from the 6 to the 7 had hardly any changes at all, just a bit better internal oiling. Its basically the same 4G63 from the evo 4-9, with the 4 having one less main bearing than the 5+, and the 9 getting mivec.

Also, ford does have a turbo Focus, but it is just fwd as you stated.


Edited by RTSGVR-4 (07/13/09 01:16 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 810450 posted 07/13/09 01:18 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting Hertz:

4b11t.org




Excellent site!



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 810475 posted 07/13/09 02:30 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
A bike chain will have more load than a timing chain. Load variance is very minimal in a timing chain as well.
Quoting ihatefall:

the timing chain is great but... an aluminum one? I ride bikes alot and aluminum/ carbon = catastrophic failure whereas as steel starts to break you can feel it.





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ihatefall
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 810536 posted 07/13/09 05:19 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
"A bike chain will have more load than a timing chain. Load variance is very minimal in a timing chain as well.

Quoting ihatefall:
the timing chain is great but... an aluminum one? I ride bikes alot and aluminum/ carbon = catastrophic failure whereas as steel starts to break you can feel it."

I wasn't comparing the chain, actually most bike chains are steel and zinc/nickel coated. I just have broken frames before and its always like WHOA! One time it ended with me in the hospital with a cracked skull and blood in my brain. Aluminum can form minor stress fractures that are too noticeable and then BAMN! snap

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 810602 posted 07/13/09 08:35 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
This is the most in depth discussion of the differences to date. This is from Tomei.

click


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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 810749 posted 07/14/09 11:30 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Oh hai, you're a Tomei dealer.



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ihatefall
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 811196 posted 07/15/09 05:08 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
it is in depth and answers all my questions!

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 842023 posted 10/20/09 01:02 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I believe there was an evo x over on evo m that made 670ish whp on an internally stock engine so I believe the 4b11 is going to be quite worthy. Since when has Mitsu downgraded?



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 842025 posted 10/20/09 01:10 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Here is what I have found after driving my RA for 6 months.

Mitsu has really tightened up the ECU programming so that you can't mod anything without reflashing.

The MIVEC head is noisy. When the motor is at full operating temp, the valve train rattles. (the dealer say they all do it which I call BS but I don't have anything to compare to).

Other than that, I would bet that the 4G and the 4B stock turbo blocks w/stock internals will handle about the same power.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 842027 posted 10/20/09 01:22 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Well combine the puck style shim over bucket lifter with crappy mitsu castings and I would say for sure the head will be noisy for sure but nothing that could be fixed with 8-12 hours of lifter reshiming


Edited by 3rdstrikedsm (10/20/09 01:23 AM)

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