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Galant VR-4 Forums » Galant VR-4 » How To and Info Archive » Liquid to air Intercooler Tank Building (pictures)`
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Liquid to air Intercooler Tank Building (pictures)`


Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184435 posted 02/17/05 08:25 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I started fabricating the tank for my water to air intercooler the other day. It tucks nicely up in the passenger side front corner in front of the wheel. Method for getting the dimensions is pretty easy. I calcuated the rough cube I needed from the cubic inches in 3 gallons. Then I tooks some measurements so that it would fit in the spot I wanted it. Next I cut out cardboard rectangles and taped them up to fit and then test fit the tank on the car. It didn't quite fit due to a little sheet metal so I made a little cutout in the upper part of the tank. Now it fits nicely and ended up holding right at 3 gallons. Now I've got the dimensions to cut the pattern out of 1/8" aluminum sheet and weld together





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Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184436 posted 02/17/05 08:28 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Got a little further (time lapse posting)...
Tank is now tacked and partially welded. I still need the bungs and filler on the top from Summit (part# anyone?) before I weld the top on.

Test tank vs actual tank


Tacked up


Inside tacks


Weld closeup


Another closeup weld

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Hertz Galant VR4.org Administrator
OneTitle to rule them all.
77/2000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184437 posted 02/17/05 08:28 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Have you test fitted it with the wheel in there? Looks kinda tight... where's all the snow and slush going to go?



Ryan Hertz

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Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184440 posted 02/17/05 08:35 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ya I test fit the wheel I actually shortened the tank about 1.5" further than the cardboard box pictures for that reason. Now it's completely behind the plastic cover that goes in that spot (if I had one). As for slush and snow, i'm afraid this car will never see that stuff again.

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14bCrazy
turdpolisher


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184442 posted 02/17/05 08:59 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Ya 600+ hp is not going to be a great thing on a snow covered road. I said 600+ because I don't know your goals. If that's low don't be pissed at me.



1240/2000 - Sold
2004 Honda Pilot"It has VTEC!!!" Gave it back.
2005 WRX Wagon - Deer Hunter Edition--RIP
2003 Suzuki Katana 600
2000 Passat wagon crap car


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Hksvr4
The New Vettel


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184446 posted 02/17/05 09:28 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Its funny how the size of the liquid intercooler is a lot smaller than a air -to -air intercooler that is used for the same application. Chris, your using the gt42 and if you were to run a air to air the intercooler would be double or triple the size of the liquid one.

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mistaVR4
Rest in Peace
484/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184452 posted 02/17/05 09:35 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Welds are looking pretty good man! Your getting there I like the tank, looks like that will be a good spot for it, makes for a real short route system.



SteveW
484/1000 Kensington Grey - Running VERY well :-)
564/2000 Belize Green ~ SOLD
749/2000 Summit White ~ SOLD
1989 Chrysler Conquest TSi SHP ~ SOLD
2004 Saab 9-5 ARC ~ Daily Driver



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Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184453 posted 02/17/05 09:40 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Thanks for the complement Steve. I've been practicing my welds like crazy. These are decent but the metal is really dirty and i'm in a hurry to get this done so they aren't perfect (ie I'm too lazy to clean them better). The inside fillet welds on the "cutout" are going to be the hardest part.

Any locals that need aluminum stuff welded though i'm your man

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HHIVR4
Aluminum Lung
1280/2000
138/2000



Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184455 posted 02/17/05 09:43 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Damn that looks nice..Reprazent the skillz.

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Polish
Dr. Pilosh Haagenscodyberger


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184457 posted 02/17/05 09:45 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Where is the inlet and outlet going? How is the piping on the inside going to work?

I apologize if these are dumb questions, I don't know much about Water to air intercoolers.



My car site
Old GVR4 #1186/2000

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Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184465 posted 02/17/05 09:51 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Inlet goes in through the top (not welded on yet). Outlet and drain come out the very bottom side (not welded on yet). This is just the water reservior/tank that feeds the system. The core itself is a PWR 6x10 barrel. I'll post more pictures of the complete system soon. Hopefully wiggens clamps and all if my budget doesn't explode

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Polish
Dr. Pilosh Haagenscodyberger


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184470 posted 02/17/05 10:08 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Oh I thought that was the core. I was way off. I knew those Barrels were cores but I didn't know they had seperate tanks. So there is a pump that pushes water from and to the tank to the core?



My car site
Old GVR4 #1186/2000

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Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184473 posted 02/17/05 10:24 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

So there is a pump that pushes water from and to the tank to the core?




Yep exactly. Pump feeds from this tank to core and returns to top of this tank.

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Polish
Dr. Pilosh Haagenscodyberger


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184477 posted 02/17/05 10:30 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Cool. I look forward to seeing pictures when it is all done and assembled.



My car site
Old GVR4 #1186/2000

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steve Galant VR4.org Administrator
Assmilk Pearl


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184505 posted 02/17/05 11:42 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Just circulating the water is good enough to keep it effective at cooling I guess? In other words, the water isn't actually cooled.



I know it's a foreign idea for most of us here, but you might want to try taking the car off jackstands.
-mitsuturbo

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gtride
Soy Decaf No-Foam Latte


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184510 posted 02/17/05 11:55 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Nice project you got there. I like your welds, i wish i could weld that good. I just need a lot more practice. Just make sure you post more pic once you get more progress. Well i am sure that everybody here heard of freon cooled intercoolers, that would almost make intake temp. below 0. that would be kind of cool on GVR4. I saw one of those on Mercedes and it was bad a*s. Keep up a good work.



Full Function Technology

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Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184512 posted 02/17/05 12:05 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

Just circulating the water is good enough to keep it effective at cooling I guess? In other words, the water isn't actually cooled.




Tank (shown here) is filled with ice and water which keeps the water on the feed side (bottom of the tank) at nominally 32 degrees. This flows through the IC core (not pictured) and cools the air as it flows by all the fins (just like an air to air). The hot(ter) water then returns to the top of the tank causing it to swirl around with the ice/water in the tank and be recooled for it's next pass through the system. At the track you get a number of passes on a full ice/water tank but you can drain and refill with fresh ice/water when it desolves. Ice is JUST to absorb thermal energy with it's phase change. You want water in the intercooler itself, not ice.

Quote:

I like your welds, i wish i could weld that good. I just need a lot more practice.




Thanks a lot. I've been practicing a ton so I can make very nice welds for other people. My wife has been telling me they are finally nice now but obviously I don't believe her because she'd say that even if they sucked since she loves me

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steve Galant VR4.org Administrator
Assmilk Pearl


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184513 posted 02/17/05 12:11 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

At the track you get a number of passes on a full ice/water tank




Theres the answer to the question I should have asked.



I know it's a foreign idea for most of us here, but you might want to try taking the car off jackstands.
-mitsuturbo

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Lucian Bartik
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184516 posted 02/17/05 12:16 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
For a drag car, a large total mass of water will keep charge air cool and many guys use ice as well in their tanks. You only need so much water to absorb the heat from a run on the strip. For street car with water/air intercooling, a heat exchanger similar to an auxiliary radiator or looking like an oil cooler is employed. Because the mass of water in Chris' system is finite, so is the amount of charge cooling it can perform before it is heat soaked. It is like a big thermal reservoir. Every time you are on boost, and the charge temps are above water temps, a little heat energy is poured into that reservoir. It is released only when charge temps are cooler than reservoir temps (i.e. off boost) or when there is a heat exchanger in the system and the ambient temps are below reservoir water temps (even Chris' tank will function limitedly as an exchanger though because it is not perfectly insulated). Water systems don't work so well in constant high load systems (road racing) because the rate at which heat is removed from the thermal reservoir to atmosphere (by the heat exchanger) is usually not equal to the rate at which the intercooler can put that energy into the reservoir. I wish I could get into the thermodynamics of this with more authority but all that comes to mind is that you are dealing with a less than %100 efficient heat exchanger moving heat into the system (intercooler core), a less than ideal means of fluid locomotion (water pump) and a less than %100 efficient heat exchanger removing heat from the system (aux. heat exchanger). All of those efficiencies compound to produce total efficiency that cannot compare to a well designed air/air intercooling system?

This guy's stuff has always kept me entertained:

http://www.merkurxr4ti.com/Intercoolers.html

LB

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Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184521 posted 02/17/05 12:23 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
LB,

We are for all practical purposes only concerned with the efficiency of the intercooler at cooling the charge air in this case. So you have charge air at X temp, cooled to Y temp by 32 degree water flowing through the heat exchanger. If the heat exchanger is as efficent as an air/air unit then the water to air intercooler is more efficient due to the fact that the air cooling the air/air intercooler is ambient (usually 50-60deg at best) vs 32deg water. The losses due to pumping, etc are not important other than a minor increase in electrical draw.

Since in a drag race situation the ice can be replace, heat soak is not an issue. On a true street car or road race car an air/air intercooler is almost alway superior over a much large range of conditions.

On a pure drag car, an efficient air/water intercooler will be better than an air/air setup until you switch to alky/meth and then you are better off having no intercooler at all.

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Lucian Bartik
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184523 posted 02/17/05 12:26 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

Its funny how the size of the liquid intercooler is a lot smaller than a air -to -air intercooler that is used for the same application. Chris, your using the gt42 and if you were to run a air to air the intercooler would be double or triple the size of the liquid one.




Water has a thermal conductivity 20 times that of air. If you can guarantee that the same mass of water will pass through your water/air intercooler as an equivalently efficient air/air unit, (might be possible considering that water is also much much denser than air) your intercooler could be 1/20th the size I suppose and still get the same charge air temperature reductions. Also assuming that water is at same temperature as air (ambient). Smaller intercoolers mean smaller Impedance to airflow as well.


Edited by Lucian Bartik (02/17/05 12:33 PM)

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Lucian Bartik
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184524 posted 02/17/05 12:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

LB,

We are for all practical purposes only concerned with the efficiency of the intercooler at cooling the charge air in this case...

...Since in a drag race situation the ice can be replace, heat soak is not an issue.




I thought that my post would come across as criticism of your system. I was only trying to illustrate its application to a guy that might not recognize that this car is only on boost for <10 seconds.

LB

P.S. was that complimentary?

edit: connotation and fluency


Edited by Lucian Bartik (02/17/05 12:38 PM)

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Pivvay
Unregistered


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184526 posted 02/17/05 12:34 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quote:

I thought that my post would come accross as criticism of your system. I was only trying to illustrate its application to a guy that didn't recognized that that this car is only on boost for <10 seconds.

LB

P.S. was complimentary?




No no. I was agreeing with you. Lots of people see these sexy water/air systems and want to run them in street cars. I feel air/air is much better suited for 99% of the people in a street car due to the efficieny stack up you were talking about. Now for a certain street cars/street class drag cars water/air makes sense.

Water to air is also stealthy!


Edited by Pivvay (02/17/05 12:36 PM)

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curtis Galant VR4.org Moderator
Space Blanket from NASA plumbed into the attic
475/1000


Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184531 posted 02/17/05 12:50 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Chris looks sweet. One day I'll start practicing with my tig. I've only had it for 5 years and used It for about an 4 hours total. The main reason is that it pulls 68 amps and my house has a 100 amp service.

As for the efficiency of the system. This isn't a carnot engine and can't be 100%. The system is a closed rigid tank set up. Which means that the specific volume, volume and mass is all conserved and is constant. I need to think about this and break out my thermo book but if you have a way to let the heat escape from the tank you would be better off due to the liquid to vapor concentration of the water. Also water boils at a lower temp when in a vacuum and boils at a higher temp under pressure. A coil of aluminum tube running through the tank and spray of co2 would also cool nicely but on a track car who cares. You could have 10 boxes built and all of them with a frozen slushy mix and change between rounds. No doubt that this will be more eff. than an air to air, just by pure thought. Walk out side when its 33 degrees or jump in a lake with 33 degree water temp. Water works better. A few of my friends have thermostat switches on ther oil coolers that switch on when the oil gets to a certain temp this could also work for you by switching to a aux air to air cooler to cool the water for street use. Just a thought. But shit your also an engineer who am I telling.. Looks good wish I lived closer I could use some tig help with my intake manifold.



92 GVR4 0475/1000
Greenhouse Effect Green
Exceeds Mechanical Limits
"Put the dawg to work.
Ass, Gas or Milkbones. Nobody rides for free" Jon AKA Toybreaker

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Pivvay
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 184535 posted 02/17/05 01:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Practice with the TIG is all it is Curtis. That and a couple tips from a few pro friends now and again when I get stuck. Now I'm trying to figure out how to get a Dynasty 200DX of my own.

If you ever need me to TIG stuff let me know. I'm sure you can find someone good locally but otherwise I'm here

For anyone that is still confused on the efficency thing, curtis and LB are right. If someone tells you a water to air is more than 100% efficent they are just comparing to an air/air at NOT the same temperature. If the water is 32deg and the air is 70deg then the intercooler can cool the air to 70 deg (100%) without actually being 100% efficent which isn't possible.

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