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Swapped in HKS cams, now no compression / Cooling issue [BOTH RESOLVED]


GSTwithPSI
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184773 posted 08/16/14 09:07 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Today I swapped in my HKS 272s. I used the RRE method and didn't remove the timing belt. Turned the motor to TDC, zip tied the belt to the cam gears and swapped out both cams according to the procedure. Everything went smooth.

After the swap, I rotated the motor over by hand a few dozen times. Everything lined up good, but it looked to me like the mark on the crank damper was a tiny bit off (like 1/16 of an inch). I attributed that to the shitty angle you have to look at the pulley from, and called it good. I waited 4 hours and went to start up the car...Nothing. It didn't even try and fire up.

At this point, I'm thinking I screwed something up. I pulled out my compression tester and I have zero compression on cylinders 1, 2 and 3. Cylinder 4 is reading 140 psi. The gauge blips quickly after each rotation on the cylinders without compression, but doesn't hold any pressure at all. Now, I'm really wondering what the hell is going on. How do I loose compression on 3 cylinders, and not the 4th? I start thinking maybe the belt jumped 1 tooth or something, and that's why the crank pulley looked a little off. I've had belts jump 3 teeth without bending valves though, so I'm thinking WTF? I decided I needed to pull the lower timing cover and see what's going on.

I pull the lower timing cover off expecting to find the timing jacked up. I rotate the motor over by hand again until all the timing marks line up. The timing is DEAD on. Everything is perfect. Now, I'm really thinking WTF is going on? The timing was fine the entire time.

I start thinking maybe the lifters need to be bled. Per the instructions from RRE, I waited 4 hours after I initially swapped the cams before starting the car, in order to let the lifters bleed down. I start thinking maybe they didn't bleed down, and the valves are hanging. I pull all the lifters out, and bleed each one. I throw them back in the car and do another compression test. Still, Zero on 1, 2 and 3...140 psi on 4.

I'm at a loss. The car was running fine before I decided to go fucking with it. I can say for absolute certain the car was never turned over out of time. I'm tempted to throw the stock cams back in just to see what happens. The shit I'm experiencing just defies logic. I don't know how compression shits out on 3 cylinders unless the valves are bent. Furthermore, I don't know how you bend valves when the car was always in time. The only thing I can think, is the lifters were still pumped up and maybe caused 3 of the 4 pistons to smack the valves. Can that even happen? Maybe I'm missing something here? You guys have any ideas?



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Edited by GSTwithPSI (09/07/14 06:13 PM)

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jnava Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184774 posted 08/16/14 09:39 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
That is odd. I installed my FP2's and didn't have a glitch with the RRE method. Is your valvetrain upgraded too? I will say that I left the car for an entire 24 hours before I did anything. Did you also turn over your motor to prime it for oil without spark?
EDIT: I turned the motor over for about 2 minutes without spark and fuel just to prime the motor.


Edited by jnava (08/16/14 09:42 PM)

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GSTwithPSI
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184775 posted 08/16/14 09:43 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Yeah, turned the motor over with the injectors unplugged and ignition disabled. Oil light was off the whole time while cranking.



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GVR4kauai
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184783 posted 08/16/14 11:05 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Your supposed to loosen the tension on the hydro tensioner for the TB before doing the job. Most likely your off a tooth or 2 now since you skipped that part. Check the tensioner and see if its in spec. You sure you where on tds on #1?



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Edited by GVR4kauai (08/16/14 11:17 PM)

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GSTwithPSI
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184785 posted 08/16/14 11:11 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I did take the tension off the belt. Like I said, I followed the RRE procedure. The timing is not off. It never was, and isn't now.



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jnava Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184788 posted 08/16/14 11:30 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Yes, I made my own tensioner tool in order to follow the RRE procedure. So you didn't feel any binding when you turned the motor over?

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GVR4kauai
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184789 posted 08/16/14 11:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Just making sure bro. But sounds like timing is 180 out. Oh did you install the cas 180 out? But that doesn't explain the lack of comp. Did you bleed the lifters?



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Edited by GVR4kauai (08/16/14 11:33 PM)

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GSTwithPSI
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184790 posted 08/16/14 11:38 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Nope, turned over smooth. The plugs were out, so I think I would have felt something hitting. I'm really wondering if bleeding the lifters is required? Did you bleed yours, Juan?

I'll follow up with saying I've done more 4G63 timing belt jobs than I ever care to remember. I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on the process, and repeated all the steps I would normally take to verify the motor is in time. Again, the car was running perfect before this. The timing hasn't changed from then till now. The belt was never removed, and all the marks still line up perfectly.

The only new part of the equation here is the 272 cams...



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Edited by GSTwithPSI (08/16/14 11:41 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184796 posted 08/17/14 12:19 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It sounds like the lifters did not bleed down in time and they stuck the valves open. Sucks dude.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184797 posted 08/17/14 01:13 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Sounds like you should do a leak down test.
If it was me I would like to know before I take anything apart a
direction to look into.



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GVR4kauai
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184802 posted 08/17/14 01:32 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I here ya bro, But you never know your eye may see a mark dead on and my eye might see half a tooth off. But since you are verifying and 100% its good I say lifters are the only thing left in play! Yes any time you remove the cams/cam caps and relieve pressure on the lifter. You must bleed before reinstalling! Its definetly your problem and the reason number 4 had compresion is you just got lucky that lifter is still sorta working lol.



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Edited by GVR4kauai (08/17/14 02:09 AM)

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cheekychimp Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184803 posted 08/17/14 02:24 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Interesting thread, might be unrelated but something to think about:

No compression after installing Crower 272 cams



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GVR4kauai
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184804 posted 08/17/14 03:52 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Hopfully no valves got bent due to the lifters not being bleed first.



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Edited by GVR4kauai (08/17/14 03:59 AM)

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r4pt0x
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184814 posted 08/17/14 07:52 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Do the HKS cams have the same base radius? If they are bigger, the valves can't close even with fully compressed lifters, especially when the valves have been reseated a few times and are now sitting much deeper in their seats.
If this is the case you have to either grind down the lifters at the bottom or the valve shafts. The engine manual gives the correct/maxmimum lenght the valve shafts should have relative to the valve spring seats. You should measure every single valve and shorten it accordingly to get back to stock length.

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184817 posted 08/17/14 09:23 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I didn't bleed mine, but that's why I left them for 24 hours before I turned over the motor to prime. Once the process was complete and primed, I turned on the car and fired up.

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GSTwithPSI
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184835 posted 08/17/14 01:03 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
This morning, I decided to throw the stock cams back in just to see what would happen. I swapped them out using the RRE method once again, and everything went smooth just like before. Spun the motor over a few dozen times to make sure all my marks were good, and they were right on the money.






I pulled out the compression tester and screwed it into cylinder #1. Bumped the car over and ZERO. Now, the gauge doesn't even blip like it did before. I repeated the test on the remaining 3 cylinders with the same results. Zero compression on cylinder 4 also, which was reading 140 psi before.

(EDIT: My compression gauge was leaking during the test. I fixed the gauge, and have good compression with the stock cams installed)

After reading the thread Paul posted the link to, I'm beginning to think I have an issue with the head. I'm not sure how I can be randomly losing compression. Theoretically, after swapping the old cams back in, I think I should have good compression in all 4 cylinders again. For some reason though, the valves aren't seating. Here's my thought process on the issue:

-Not the piston rings: The piston rings wouldn't be the problem. Even if the rings on cylinders were shot, cylinder 4 was reading 140 yesterday. Today, it's reading zero, so I don't believe a ring sealing issue is to blame.

-Not the timing: The mechanical timing is dead on. You can see in the pictures above.

-Not the cams: I have swapped between the stock set and the HKS 272s, the results aren't consistent between the two. The car was running fine on the stock cams less than 2 days ago though.

-Not the head gasket: The cooling system is holding pressure fine. I did a pressure test, and it holds 20 psi no problem. Again, if I had a blown headgasket, I doubt the car would have been running well 2 days ago before I did the cam swap.

-Not the lifters: I'm running revised 3G lifters. They worked perfect before I swapped cams. There are probably a billion other people running them without issue as well. I did a manual bleed on them and didn't see any change in my compression results.


After reading the thread Paul posted up, I'm beginning to think my head has some issues. Something like this:

Quoting The thread Paul linked to:

I was told that the issue I'm having happens when the valve is seated slightly deeper into the head then normal causing the stem to be higher up. Supposably this allows the lifters to pump up farther then they are supposed to making valves stick open slightly.




Before I read the thread Paul posted up, I was leaning toward maybe having bent some valves. I read in a few places that if the lifters weren't allowed to bleed down enough (or they aren't bled manually) then valves can smack the pistons and bend valves. I've found conflicting information on bleeding lifters though. And, from personal experience, I've swapped cams and started the car up right afterwards without doing any sort of bleeding, and it ran just fine.

After swapping the stock cams back in today and seeing even worse results, I'm more convinced something is up with the head. I'm pretty dumbfounded here. I guess I could do a cylinder leak down test, but I feel like there's no use. I'm fairly confident the valves are to blame for the loss in compression...And I believe I've ruled out all the other causes I could think of in the list above. As much as I hate to do it, I think my next course of action is to pull the head. That is, unless you guys have any other ideas.

On an unrelated note, my neighbor (an older guy about 50) stopped by today while I was working on the car. He has a pretty nice old Falcon, a 67' or so I think. He's an old muscle head, but appreciates and takes an interest in the work I do on the Galant. He saw me driving it the last week or so, and came over asking why the car was up on jack stands again.
I told him the Galant is just basically my big Erector set. I just like to take it apart and put it back together. Actually driving it is overrated.



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Edited by GSTwithPSI (08/17/14 05:03 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184838 posted 08/17/14 01:59 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Unfortunately, I think that you are right. The only thing left to do is pull the head.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184840 posted 08/17/14 02:07 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Brett, you are either cursed, or your cars have separation anxiety. It always needs you around giving it love.



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GVR4kauai
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184842 posted 08/17/14 02:30 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It's because its to late bro you can bleed the lifters change parts. The valves are already bent if you ask me and nothing but replacing them will fix it! Sorry to say it but sounds like the right answer to me bro.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184843 posted 08/17/14 02:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Issue resolved.

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GSTwithPSI
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184845 posted 08/17/14 02:52 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^Maybe...Swapping the 272s back in right now. I'll report back with an update.

Getting pretty damn good at swapping cams out though!



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jnava Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184848 posted 08/17/14 03:01 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Lol

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coyotes
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184849 posted 08/17/14 03:01 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting jnava:

Issue resolved.




I'm curious/confused now. Are the valves not bent? Someone educate me.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184850 posted 08/17/14 03:11 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Its muthafuking magic yotes, magic.

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1184854 posted 08/17/14 04:31 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Take the cams out, and remove the shrader valve from your compression tester. Screw the tester into each cylinder and the other end up to a compressor. If air is coming out the exhaust or intake port, you have bent valves.

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