Fuel set-up for ~600whp

[littleb]

As the title states, I'm looking for a fuel set-up for a ~600whp car. I currently have -8an feed and return lines, FIC 1100's, and an Aeromotive 340. I'm thinking that the injectors and pump might fall a little short. Anyone have any recommendations as to what I should do?

 

[GSTwithPSI]

What fuel?

 

[littleb]

Ah yea, my bad. 93. I'd like to go e85 but there's no station close to me that carries it

 

[GSTwithPSI]

We're talking about a 4G63T here, right? If so, you'll be hard pressed to make 600WHP on 93 octane alone with any fuel system. Do you have plans for N2O, or methanol injection?

 

[littleb]

Build is as follows:

156mm magnus rods
Custom manley pistons (~9.0:1)
Eagle crank
GSC S2 cams
GSC valve springs
+1mm valves
Magnus Cast Intake manifold
JM Fab exhaust manifold
BW S362

I'm not adverse to meth

 

[OldHairyBastard]

93 won't cut it and Meth might not get you there either. You can use race fuel to do it but you'll have to put it back to a street tune on 93 when you're not using the good stuff. All you can do is try and see how far you can safely take it up to.

 

[littleb]

If I decide to go e85 down the road, I'll definitely have to upgrade injectors and pump but for right now, if I max out my setup, are my pump and injectors ok? Or should I get an inline fuel pump to run after the aeromotive?

 

[NateCrisman]

Agreed with the above comments. Your pump & injectors are probably ok for gasoline to that power level, but your going to be octane limited to running boost in the mid 20's on 93 octane, which won't produce 600whp on a 2.0L 4G63 (your probably looking at maybe low 500's on pump 93). Your likely going to need boost to 30-35psi range to make 600 at the wheels, and that's going to require octane in the 112-116 range....either race gas or a large auxiliary methanol setup.

Meth can certainly get you there on octane level and has a nice condition that it's on when you need it, and off when you don't, allowing you to keep "reasonable" injector/pump systems that cruise/idle/tune well and make the car drive well for everyday use. BUT...Meth kits add another layer of complexity to the tuning on boost, and add more failure points to a setup (yes you can build failsafes into the setup)...but it's a bit more hassle compared to just running E85 and calling it done.

On E85....your pump/injectors are going to limit you to about 450whp by my guesstimate......you'd need to go in the 1600cc injector range and a big pump...but those parts are pretty cheap, and E85 has plenty of effective octane to easy run the 30+psi of boost needed to hit your 600whp goal. Granted...if E85 isn't available, it isn't available and not worth discussing.

 

[89Patches]

Possible yes. Actually made 580whp on just 94 pump (it's a Canadian thing) on a dynojet. Had a Aeromotive 340 but is started to run out around 520whp, ended up going to a surge tank setup with twin 044's and -10an feed/-8an return. Though when we went to the Shootout and used 93 "Merica" fuel. Power was taken out, How much? I couldn't tell ya. Also swapping from ECMlink to the LinkG4 ECU car picked up 60whp.

Brief run down on the setup.

- 8.5:1 compression
- Ported head, stock size valves
- Kelford 272's
- Magnus V3 w/ 90mm TB
- 3" to 4" intercooler piping
- FP 3582 T4 .82 a/r @28psi
- ID 1000cc injectors BP @43psi


BTW this is my brother's car, I just know the setup well. That was the limit of what he could do on just straight pump, added meth injection and is now over 600whp. As for your setup you could make that number probably with meth but I highly doubt it on just 93 pump. Could go bigger on the turbo to make more HP on 93, though the car will become lazier.

Edit: Once it made over 600whp on pump/meth the ID1000's are at the limit of what they can do.

 

[littleb]

There's e85 around me, just far enough away that it would be a hassle. I suppose I could always just get a 30 gal drum to fill up and keep. How long e85 last sitting like that?

 

[NateCrisman]

Well...if your driving the car everyday...you'll get something like 12-14mpg on E85 if it's tuned fairly well and your beating the snot out of the motor fairly often cause your always out "tuning" wot runs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif. at least that was what I got for an average with E85 on a 500's hp might 10sec setup (in a 1g). Ethanol is hydroscopic, so you need to keep it sealed up tight for it to store for any significant time. I would say storing the fuel for more than a month or two would be sketchy unless you had a metal sealed drum and some sort of pump setup.

your going to kinda have to "do the math" with how much you drive the car, how far of a drive to an E85 station is, and factor in some of the pita of obtaining drums and getting them to/from the station and unloaded from the truck.

BUT E85 is so much more suited to your 600whp goal, and is frankly, so much cheaper than a meth kit with proper failsafes...even after you factor in the upgrades to your pump/injectors.....I'd try to find a way to make it work.

 

[turbowop]

Just run methanol injection, IMO. It'll get you close and you won't have to deal with the hassle of getting/storing E85.

I have a similar situation. I could easily make more power on E85, but with the closest station at 35 miles away it just isn't worth it. And all other stations are over 100 miles away.

 

[thecman02]

I don't have any of my fuel pump research data in front of me, but I believe your injectors would be first limiting factor running at a stock base fuel pressure. Since your not going to be able to run ridiculous boost pressures you can raise your base fuel pressure and stretch your injectors further. Should talk to the guys from Team Pump Gas. They seem to have getting great numbers from 93 down. From what I saw having a ridiculously good intercooler and putting yourself in the correct part of the turbocharger efficiency island goes a long ways towards avoiding your knock limitation. With that said, you could easily get the numbers you want from a s366, but it will be an absolute dog/dyno queen.

 

[littleb]

Quoting NateCrisman:
Well...if your driving the car everyday...you'll get something like 12-14mpg on E85 if it's tuned fairly well and your beating the snot out of the motor fairly often cause your always out "tuning" wot runs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif. at least that was what I got for an average with E85 on a 500's hp might 10sec setup (in a 1g). Ethanol is hydroscopic, so you need to keep it sealed up tight for it to store for any significant time. I would say storing the fuel for more than a month or two would be sketchy unless you had a metal sealed drum and some sort of pump setup.

your going to kinda have to "do the math" with how much you drive the car, how far of a drive to an E85 station is, and factor in some of the pita of obtaining drums and getting them to/from the station and unloaded from the truck.

BUT E85 is so much more suited to your 600whp goal, and is frankly, so much cheaper than a meth kit with proper failsafes...even after you factor in the upgrades to your pump/injectors.....I'd try to find a way to make it work.



I probably wont be driving the car every day. But I would be driving enough that it'd be a hassle to go to a station with e85 every time I need to fill up. The closest station to be is about 20 miles from my house. I don't think obtaining drums or pumps would be too much of a hassle. I can get new 5/15/30/55 gal cans/drums and rotary pumps for cheap. The biggest struggle would be transporting it to and from a station. I have a truck but it's on it's last leg. So i'd probably have to go with two 15 gal drums or a a bunch of 5 gal cans. That would probably be enough to get me through a couple weeks. Might end up going the e85 route.

Also, is an aluminum fuel cell ok with e85? I've asked a couple people and heard different things.

 

[GSTwithPSI]

Quoting turbowop:
Just run methanol injection, IMO. It'll get you close and you won't have to deal with the hassle of getting/storing E85.

I have a similar situation. I could easily make more power on E85, but with the closest station at 35 miles away it just isn't worth it. And all other stations are over 100 miles away.



I considered methanol before I swapped to E85, but chose to drive the 20 or so miles to the nearest E85 station instead. @ $50 bucks a can for 5 gallons of VP M1, there's no way that meth was going to be practical for me if I ever planed to use the car at all. I get that it's not spraying unless you're beating on the car, but I also didn't want to worry about running the tank dry. Not to mention, I have to drive about half that distance to get the methanol anyways, so I just suck it up and make the haul to get E85. I'm considering adding the flex fuel sensor after I swap to SD and free up some ECU inputs.

Out of curiosity, how often do you fill your tank under various driving conditions, Mark?

 

[turbowop]

It's taken me four years to get through one 5-gallon pail of methanol. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif I just emptied one into the car the other day. I have another one still sealed ready to go.

It's literally only spraying above 10psi. And since I don't drive like an asshole romping on it everywhere, it takes forever to get through five gallons. I just keep an eye on the reservoir.

 

[diambo4life]

600whp has been made several times on pump 93 in a 4G. It's all about the tune. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif I'm an E85 guy tho. That pump/injector setup is sufficient for the HP goal if pump gas is being used.

 

[GSTwithPSI]

Quoting turbowop:
It's taken me four years to get through one 5-gallon pail of methanol. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif I just emptied one into the car the other day. I have another one still sealed ready to go.

It's literally only spraying above 10psi. And since I don't drive like an asshole romping on it everywhere, it takes forever to get through five gallons. I just keep an eye on the reservoir.



Oh, wow. I figured it would be much faster than that. What about IMSCC weekend? Did you use a good bit then?

 

[turbofonz]

My buddy's evo made 600 mustang dyno whp on 93octane. It's possible.

 

[littleb]

Any info on that evo build?