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Why remove 4WS


citymunky
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 961774 posted 01/05/11 10:12 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
So I read that alot of people remove 4WS from there GVR4s. Most of the time is because something is leaking, or to weight saving, but other than that why remove it? Wouldn't 4WS make the car handle better during sharp turns?

Here a link of a video showing Nissan's 4 Wheel Active Steering vs a Non active steering car.
http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/INTRODUCTION/DETAILS/4WAS/

I know that with the GVR4 being AWD, it wouldn't be so tail happy as the RWD G35, but still our 4WS got to have some effect on handing even if it's only less than 2 degrees of steering.

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Edited by citymunky (01/05/11 10:21 AM)

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mitsuturbo
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 961775 posted 01/05/11 10:27 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I like the 4ws a lot. I've driven AWD galants with and without. I prefer to drive them with it. This is precisely why i did the write-up on a 4 bolt install while keeping 4ws.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 961803 posted 01/05/11 01:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
In situations where you're constantly adjusting speeds above and below the turn on point at 31mph for 4ws (like during autocross) it gives the car an unsettling feeling as it turns on and off. I honestly never liked 4ws in the first place as I'd feel it do the same thing on the street sometimes as well, so away it went when I swapped in a 4bolt.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 961806 posted 01/05/11 01:15 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Mine worked (leak free and all) and the only time I found it to feel 'right' was doing high speed sweepers in the snow, since it allows you to be really lazy about powersliding through corners. That said, the weight, complexity and irritation in other driving conditions necessitate it's removal.

It's a better weight savings than getting a CF hood, and it's one less place that can leak fluid on your tires.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 961808 posted 01/05/11 01:22 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I've only 'felt' it while switching lanes on the highway...other than that, I can't really feel much of on some speedy corners...it does feel a BIT more understeer-ish (if that's even possible) but it's so little to notice. I haven't gone auto crossing in the car yet but I'd like to see what it can do. I think once it starts to go, I'll probably remove it and just put in the 4 bolt rear, remove abs lines and other things that's linked to the 4ws. I don't like to deal with ANYTHING that leaks.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 961813 posted 01/05/11 02:10 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Mine works fine but I hate that twitchy steering feel when going fast into corners. I have to make small steering corrections to keep the car stable. If I do a 4 bolt install I will get rid of it.

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DR1665
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 961831 posted 01/05/11 04:08 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Why we lose the 4WS on the GVR4s:

LEAKS/FAILURE - I suspect most system failures stem from corrosion, though the neglect and abuse of previous owners shouldn't be ruled out. It is more cost effective to delete, rather than repair, a redundant system. Reduced complexity pays large rewards on road and track.

WEIGHT REDUCTION - Yawn.

CHASSIS DYNAMICS - Where the real money from the film is made!

On the street: As mentioned in this thread, the activation of the system imparts a bit of pucker when you aren't expecting it. Sure, that slightly banked highway curve on a sunny afternoon with the windows down as you pass some stroke in an H3 who only has the balls to do 80 on straight-aways can have you grinning at your technological (read: evolutionary) advantage, but take that same curve in the dark when the roads are slick and you might get "the pucker."

On the race track: A proper wheelman can adapt his style to the car, but the system introduces a bit of understeer at the limit which might be considered undesirable by some drivers. The drift kiddies definitely aren't going to like it.

On gravel/loose surfaces: Which is why I'm removing it from the rally car. The Galant is a tank. It's large and in charge and getting that much mass to rotate is made easier when the rear end isn't trying to make a neutral course correction. Don't get me wrong, if you're looking to drive at a brisk pace down a dirt road, the GVR4 is the perfect car for it. The long wheelbase, weight, and 4WS make for some very confident driving, but it's a bit too resistant at the limit and I don't want to have to worry about that. (See also: reduced complexity, above.)

That's my take.



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bazeng
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 961853 posted 01/05/11 05:28 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Anybody ever attempt to switch the lines on the system to try to enable more over steer?



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BrandonEchols
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 961855 posted 01/05/11 05:35 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting bazeng:

Anybody ever attempt to switch the lines on the system to try to enable more over steer?




Methinks that would be terrifying.
Because the system is speed sensitive, and only comes on at > 30MPH, the faster you are going, and the more you turn the wheel...the more angle you'd get from the rear wheels, and if they steered opposite phase, instead of same phase like they do normally...

But if you wanna experience a real pucker factor, give it a go.



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Edited by brandonechols (01/05/11 05:39 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 961860 posted 01/05/11 06:19 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It seemed to work real good on quick lane changes on the freeway, but as soon as you go fast around a long sweeper type curve, it gives you the feeling the rearend wants to come around. Nothing to panic about, but if you're not expecting it, tis a weird feeling. Least this was my experiences.

To me, it's one of the 'special' things these cars came from, whether it's considered gimmicky or doesn't add a whole lot to the driving experience, I'm going to keep it on, just like the A/C, cruise and so on. However, if I keep the car long enough, I'll probably go ahead and upgrade the lines and such, to not worry so much about leaking...

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blackvr4
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 961966 posted 01/06/11 12:47 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Unlike the 4WS in the 300ZX (which turns the rear wheels ~1.5degrees at the opposite direction of the front wheels being turned, which induces in theory tighter steering at XX speed)

Mitsubishi however did things slightly differently, the rear tires turn in phase or same direction as the front wheel turns, thus inducing understeer in cornering. Really the Mitsubishi system is really for "faster" lane switches, rather than inducing understeer in tighter turns.

I'm not sure if there is a way to reverse it on a Mitsubishi and make the rear wheels turn in the opposite direction of the front. I have never researched it, nor would personally want to invest time or money in an overcomplicated expensive system that prone for failure causing power steering leaks in the rear of the car.

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 961990 posted 01/06/11 02:42 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Sure the 4ws system doesn't compare to others.

My 89 Mazda MX-6 GT Turbo 4ws system was so awesome. I so miss that car. The rear wheels would turn even at park, up to 5 degrees in the opposite direction or inj the same direction at a certain speed.

I really don't mind my 4ws system in VR-4, sure its not the greatest, but you can learn to adapt to it. I have never taken the car autocrossing so I haven't really experienced some of it worst characteristics. I couldn't bring myself to remove it either way. It's the way this rare care was ment to be



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 961995 posted 01/06/11 03:45 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
while I agree the the 4WS is one of the things that makes this car "special" I am going to pull it. My driving fun comes from twisty roads & I hate the system kicking in & out as I cross the threshold of the system engaging & disengaging, especially if I'm under hard braking when it happens. While Ive never had a control issue due to this it makes it feel unpredictable. I'm also getting the sense that the rear rack is not holding center when I'm below the kick in point.

I have no intention of parting with this car at this juncture unless I or some asshat totals her. Thus for me it's about it performing to my standards not whether or not some future buyer would have liked it to remain. Besides I have already ditched the abs & cruise. Combine that fact with having upgraded turbo suspension ect... She's no longer a "Stocker" & I highly doubt if the lack of 4WS will any longer have much effect on any potential resale value.

For me it's about the car being what I want it to be and having the rear wheels stable is going to make a big difference in my enjoyment factor over feeling the ass end sashaying around on me.



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DR1665
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 962021 posted 01/06/11 06:13 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting bazeng:

Anybody ever attempt to switch the lines on the system to try to enable more over steer?



I've thought about this, but never with any seriousness.

If it were truly possible to switch phase as simply as switching a couple high pressure lines, it could make for some serious shenanigans. Alternatively, if system activation is dictated by a check valve somewhere (as I said, I'm not entirely familiar with the system), it might be possible to flip the entire system around and have it steer the rear wheels opposite steering input at speeds below... oh wait. There's the pucker again.

Still. Interesting to think about.

EDIT: After a quick search, it seems the system is entirely hydraulic, suggesting it might be possible to swap lines twice, in order to reverse the activation point and direction of the rear steering. Just throwing it out there. If someone was going to remove it anyway, it might be a fun thing to try.



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Edited by DR1665 (01/06/11 06:17 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 962025 posted 01/06/11 06:28 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
You'd still need a pump driven from the rear wheels to make it steer. That'd keep you from the low speed solution.



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fuel
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 962050 posted 01/06/11 09:18 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I always thought about perhaps operating the rear pump with an electric motor with a speed controller hooked up to the ABS sensors, that way you could use the mechanical 4 bolt rear LSD while keep the 4WS, and better still could adjust when the 4WS kicks in by increasing/decreasing the controller speed, and even have the option of simply turning it off effectively making it passive 4 wheel steering like the factory non-4WS models.

Another question is - is there much of a difference between the passive 4WS on the 1G T/E/L compared to a 'locked' rack on a 4WS system?



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 962063 posted 01/06/11 10:54 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
^^^
As i have said many times.. it's SUPER easy to keep 4ws and go to a mechanical 4 bolt LSD. I did a write up on it about 6-8 weeks ago in the tech section. I understand the electric motor theory, to get the steering to activate at a lower speed, though. The honda prelude (92ish) had a 4ws system much like the 300z. They're both a lot of fun to play with. I have always loved the factory 4ws in my GVR4s. Oversteer is super easy to achieve with a bit of the ol' "scandinavian flick", so understeer isn't really much of an issue as far as i'm concerned.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 962074 posted 01/06/11 11:51 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting DR1665:

Quoting bazeng:

Anybody ever attempt to switch the lines on the system to try to enable more over steer?



I've thought about this, but never with any seriousness.

If it were truly possible to switch phase as simply as switching a couple high pressure lines, it could make for some serious shenanigans. Alternatively, if system activation is dictated by a check valve somewhere (as I said, I'm not entirely familiar with the system), it might be possible to flip the entire system around and have it steer the rear wheels opposite steering input at speeds below... oh wait. There's the pucker again.

Still. Interesting to think about.

EDIT: After a quick search, it seems the system is entirely hydraulic, suggesting it might be possible to swap lines twice, in order to reverse the activation point and direction of the rear steering. Just throwing it out there. If someone was going to remove it anyway, it might be a fun thing to try.




If it could be set up to steer opposite phase, and only come on at <31 mph...then that would be pretty fackin' sweet.



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fuel
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 962131 posted 01/07/11 03:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting mitsuturbo:

^^^
As i have said many times.. it's SUPER easy to keep 4ws and go to a mechanical 4 bolt LSD. I did a write up on it about 6-8 weeks ago in the tech section. I understand the electric motor theory, to get the steering to activate at a lower speed, though. The honda prelude (92ish) had a 4ws system much like the 300z. They're both a lot of fun to play with. I have always loved the factory 4ws in my GVR4s. Oversteer is super easy to achieve with a bit of the ol' "scandinavian flick", so understeer isn't really much of an issue as far as i'm concerned.




Could you perhaps link me to that thread/post? I had a quick look through the tech section and couldn't find it, plus I can't seem to work the search function here properly.

*edit* Ok so I found it - are you absolutely positive that's a MECHANICAL (ie plate type) LSD rather than a VISCOUS LSD? Mine already has the viscous LSD 4 bolt rear end (factory fitted) but I am wishing to go to mechanical plate type (ie Evo1-3) while retaining the 4WS pump - either gear driven from the diff nugget or driven by an electric motor.



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Edited by fuel (01/07/11 03:29 PM)

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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 962134 posted 01/07/11 03:16 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
In my old black car I had a scary encounter with my AWS. BoostedAWD91 was driving my car with three other people in it including me. We were having a spirited drive back home from one of the rally's in Wellsboro when we came upon a sweeping left hand turn I believe. The AWS acted like it didn't know which way to turn and he said it felt like the car was sawing back and forth on the wheel. Granted I don't know how that could of happened since the whole system is hydraulic and not electronic. But none the less it happened more than once and every time it happened the ABS would act up at the same time making the brake pedal as hard as a rock. Not fun to say the least.



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fuel
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 962135 posted 01/07/11 03:21 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I think that would come under mechanical failure of some kind?

Only issue I've had with my 4WS, and I'm not even entirely sure if it is the 4WS at fault is when driving around high speed corners on the motorway with only small turns, it feels like the rear end is oscillating the steering - it was real severe when I had semi slicks fitted (stiff sidewalls), but with road tyres I can barely feel it. I'm wondering if it could be a worn suspension bush/ball joint/rear steering tie rod end at fault.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 962152 posted 01/07/11 04:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting brandonechols:


If it could be set up to steer opposite phase, and only come on at <31 mph...then that would be pretty fackin' sweet.




I'm not sure it'd be worth the benefit. Does anybody have issues maneuvering the car in parking lots or when parallel parking? I know I don't.



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fuel
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 962153 posted 01/07/11 04:36 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
you would need some sort of valve or switch for when it's in reverse, as trying to reverse a 4WS car which rear wheels go the opposite way is a bit tricky - I know the 4WS Celicas have a switch purposely for that.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 962223 posted 01/08/11 03:53 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting dmj:

.....but I hate that twitchy steering feel when going fast into corners. I have to make small steering corrections to keep the car stable....



+1



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 962264 posted 01/08/11 11:13 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
I personally don't mind the 4WS. It took some getting use to, and some money to repair a leaky line, but worth it to me to be able to keep the car in it's original form. Even things that have been removed to do mild upgrades like...intake, IC and piping, ect....have all been kept and stored. If the values were to ever raise, a mint stocker will be worth more than a ragged out, hack job any day. I've got to much money in 1947 as of now to ever think about selling her.


Edited by Dbossman (01/08/11 11:16 AM)

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