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wing for the one lap team. done with pictures and shipped

curtis

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May 4, 2003
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Clarksville TN
Ok been emailing Tim back and forth there getting a real wing for downforce. Posting this here to get more traffic. We need help from the community.


Does anyone know of wind tunnel testing on the stock spoiler, a video of a galant or a similar shaped car in a wind tunnel etc. The wing needs to go either aft or up for clean air and down force. I have some mounts here that might work but not sure they're doable but were getting close on time to get done for the race. The wing still isn't built and well have shipping to me and from me to NY so the guys can paint let dry and mount all of this take time. My part will only take a few days or so so no big deal but shipping, wing is getting built, time for that and wait time will push us right to the edge so the faster the better. Any cool video or pictures will really help


Thanks from TN and NY
 
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curtis

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oh sh*t The stig crashes
full run without wing run
koneggsegiSTIG wif wing

veyron with wing working getting smoked out of the hole. This is the type of wing system we should build. low and flat then up and angled when you need it.

this kid will take over the world. Young kids shouldn't be this smart. Built his own wind tunnel. Just watch




Maybe someone needs to send Chris there model car and well build a wind tunnel real fast and build a scale model.

Got to go back to work. Late lunch is now over.
 

CarRacer

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Jun 28, 2007
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What about the poor man's wind tunnel? I know some racers use to tape a bunch of 3" lengths of yarn to the section of car they were interested in and rigging a video camera to watch that section while they went around the track.

That seems feasible to do on a stock car to at least get an idea of the airflow between the rear window and the spoiler. Tape a bunch of yarn on a car and have a guy in the backseat filming the yarn.

If the weather cooperates this weekend, I might be able to pull off a test like that. Let me know if that would help.
 

Muskrat

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Jun 13, 2004
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Lexington, KY
I been curious about this myself. Does the spoiler actually aid the aero, or is it for show.

There are ways you can calculate the aero drag on a vehicle using cross sectional area and timing how long it takes the car to slow down at high speed (say 70mph to 60 mph, where mechanical drag can be considered insignificant). It's a rough estimate but might help. If you need, I can see if I can find the exact process and equations.

Or you could build your own small scale wind tunnel (not TOO hard) and use one of these:

img9938af0.jpg


Might also give you an idea of what you're dealing with.
 

curtis

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May 4, 2003
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Do it please because at best mine might get up to 15 miles an hour going down the backyard hill /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif

It would really help alot also if you could take a dowel rod or something and rig it to the licence plate bolts and tie yarn every 6 inches or so video then angle it back and back. I guess a 4 foot section straight up would work. What were wanting is to know how far back from the roll over of the trunk lid is clean air and how much it needs to be shifted back and how far up. I can't machine out super huge long pieces I'm really hopeful we can find a middle ground of good looks and function.


No offense to any of the ams guys and I'm sure this was all tested either at a track or in a tunnel but I really don't want to build something like this. First because its going to be running on the streets with a trailer behind it and two because it just doesn't look like it belongs there on a rally car with a rally paint job and 3 getting supplies tools and luggage out would suck




I was thinking earlier about a mount that would connect to the factory holes then wrap back and down the turn of the trunk lid then from the top forward point and from the rear bottom point would both come up and connect at one point back a few inches behind the trunk lid or dead even with the trunk lid then an adjustable rod with heim joint ends would be used from the bottom point to the rear of the wing to change the angle of pitch.


Just running through ideas in my head right now. Any help you guys can give will be most helpful.
 

curtis

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Ok that works as you can see the wing by that image doesn't need to be that tall or does it. Because the stock evo wing was on the car during the test. I wish they would have did the same test on a wingless car. If anyone has an evo 8/9 If you could please measure from the trunk 90 degrees up and give us a measurement to the top of the wing top of the roof and an angle of the rear window and its length. I really think the VR4 roof isn't as high up as the Ebo's by the way they look there built more for us tall americans. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Now with that said maybe the one lap guys could get a set of vortec generators for an aircraft...IE cub, citabrea, pipers like the cherokees, or commanche's and the beechcraft bonanzas all have kits aviable. there placed at angles on the leading edge of the wings to lower stall speeds. Me and my boss tested out a Cub I installed them on and its simple amazing what they do stall speed before was in the 30 knot range. On the second after test I brought it in and he coached me down until I was about 3 feet of the deck and I pushed the throttle in at about 60 knots slowly with no flaps and its like it would never drop we were in the teens before the aircraft lost lift and I set it down. Right when the tires hit he jerked the throttle and kicked the pedal hard right and pulled straight back then landed on the taxi way scared the sh*t out of me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


upgrade kit is only 150 click on the J3 upgrade for the stabilizer

how they work click me

a pair installed
a set installed

Installation is easy
they have a piece of tape that has the slots cut in for placement. You start with a tape measure and a straight edge and get a layout designed then stretch a string and tape down then use a piece of tape now take the cut out larger piece of tape and rool it out and remove the backing with a friend. stretch it out tight and line up both sides and rub down to remove all air bubbles then the glue is a locktite brand with glue in a tube and a spray on activator. Stuff is like instant epoxy I have some in my rollaway I think. Then just start gluing them on and when done with everyone you simply remove the tape and paint or leave them natural aluminum. Can't remember if there anodized or not but to pass FAA/PMA certs they probably are clear anodized.


Tim if this is something you may want to try yell and I'll call Micro up since I've installed these before, maybe we can get a deal on them.
 

GreenGSX

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May 15, 2005
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681
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Rochester, New York
Curtis, I was looking at the Aeromotions R2 wing that AMS sells and noticed that there is an additional bracket that attaches to the bottom of the wing on the nub. It's triangular with two points mounted on the pylon and one on the wing. The adjustable rod provides the second wing attachment point. Is it possible to just make that triangle bigger to get more height out the pylons you already have? The adjustable rod could just be extended pretty simply.

I like the idea of the vortex generators but I think I can knock those out in a night with a table saw and my tig welder. Add a bit of 3M molding tape to stick them on. Its the size/shape and quantity I don't yet understand. Anybody with a MR want to take some measurements?

Tim
 

Boostdtalon

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Oct 15, 2009
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Buckley, Wa.
I wish this topic would have come about before i got rid of my Evo. especially since i had an MR. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
 

How about something like this on the stock vr4 wing it worked for the bmw e30 m3 dtm?
img.php

img.php
 
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curtis

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May 4, 2003
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Clarksville TN
Quoting GreenGSX:
Curtis, I was looking at the Aeromotions R2 wing that AMS sells and noticed that there is an additional bracket that attaches to the bottom of the wing on the nub. It's triangular with two points mounted on the pylon and one on the wing. The adjustable rod provides the second wing attachment point. Is it possible to just make that triangle bigger to get more height out the pylons you already have? The adjustable rod could just be extended pretty simply.

I like the idea of the vortex generators but I think I can knock those out in a night with a table saw and my tig welder. Add a bit of 3M molding tape to stick them on. Its the size/shape and quantity I don't yet understand. Anybody with a MR want to take some measurements?

Tim



Tim the generators I posted are no where similar to what mitsu put on the MR. There only like 3/8 inch tall and an 1 or so long there's a few different designs but the micros are the most used . There using aluminum extrusions that I'm sure could be sourced out and machined but the time it would take and the design time etc far outweighs the price of an upgrade kit. All their stuff is wind tunnel tested and shape, radius of leading edge and trailing edge install angle and distances are all computed already. If you look close at the pictures and do a google search for aircraft/airplane/experimental vortec generators you'll find alot of info. The small pieces are glued on and the glue is hella strong and as thin as crazy glue when applied. If you go trying to weld them up to a thin sheet then sticking it on the car roof your defeating the purpose and could cause more harm than good. Remember the thing I was talking about with taping the wire down to a surface to move the air off the body of the car. This is how these work, and were only talking about the first few layers of atoms coming across the paint. the air hits the leading edge of the wing the air starts over the top and about 2 inches back off the leading edge the air hits the small pieces each piece is put on in pairs and each set of pairs are spaced out differently than in between. The effect is a swirl of air from each set and small individual vorteses laid flat across the wing that straightens the air and give the wing more lift when applied to the bottom of a wing will produce more downforce. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/idea.gif If you simply try and tig weld the piece to a strip of .025 or larger sheetmetal the air going across the roof will hit this wall of sheetmetal and double sided tape first and break up and jump the pieces all together, back to layers of atom in sheer to each other as the car passes through there space on the planet.

The mitsu designers bar works but the shape of the base and how it flares up, the height and thickness of the generators on there have been mapped out in a tunnel as well but on a evo with a huge wing a foot off the trunk. The small generators from micro have been mapped out for shape size and I sure speed because the generators of a King air turbo prop look and are placed almost the same as a cessna or cub. I really bet I could call them up and say we have a car running in the one lap this year and would like to give these a try is there anyway you could get a set for a 3 foot distance (probably 10 or 12 total and a glue kit) on the cheap. Most airplane guys are car fanatics anyway hell they might give us some.

I know I sound all anal about this but when I messed with airplanes I was way to anal. I never wanted to question my work because someone crashed or was killed. My old flight company lost 85-24355 "Christine" in trees on Ft Campbell due to a tail rotor failure about 6 or 8 months after I went to brigade HQ. During the time after the crash and before the accident team from FT. Rucker reported on the cause of the crash I was going nuts and thought about it constantly because I knew I put the gearbox on it as well as a couple more gear boxes. I even got so bad I went and talked to people at the hanger and pulled copies of the historical files out to find someone replaced it after me.


I'm making a command decision I'll call them next week for you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

Whoodoo

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Jul 11, 2009
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Binghamton, NY
I think if you are really hurting for time, anything is better than nothing.

From my limited (albeit decent) knowledge of general aerodynamics, the stock rear wing will have *some* affect on downforce, but probably nothing like what you're looking for.

If the One Lap team is on a budget, I would vouch for going with an evo rear spoiler as they are higher and more aggressive.

If the team has a little dough to spend, get a spoiler like the piece from AMS and get it about a foot or a little less off the deck lid as far back as you can. I know I'm speaking in very general terms, but really that's all you can hope for at this stage. Real accurate aero takes copious amounts of time and money. If you don't have both of those, then the best thing you can do is make an educated guess. Based on my experience, that guess is to go aggressive wing and get it up and back.

Also, if its better overall aero performance as opposed to just rear downforce, the best thing you can do is under the body. Reducing the low pressure area at the back of the car by means of rear diffuser is a big plus. Reducing the amount of high pressure that finds its way under the car by means of front splitter will help out as well. The rear diffuser would take quite a bit of trouble to fab/mount, but an air dam and splitter up front can be done on a budget with alumalite. There are some decent examples of front aero work on a budget in the links in this thread.
 

Hertz

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Jul 29, 2002
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Chicago, IL
Are they really struggling for grip in back? They had a top 5 skidpad result?!

Want to go faster? Remove the wing.
 

im not sure if your goal for wanting to put a wing on the car is aesthetics or more function.
I am a big fan of using the under body of cars to create suction to the road. that's how a lot of super cars stick to the road at high speed,take the Veyron for example.
if a wing is improperly engineered it could create more drag than useful downforce. just my .02 cents
 

GreenGSX

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May 15, 2005
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Rochester, New York
I would never, ever, in my lifetime put a wing on a car for aesthetics. i do my best not to knock the guys who do but sometimes I am laughing on the inside.

In this case I am looking for more rear stick for all of the high speed tracks we have this year. Last summer I had the car set up so it could rotate in the same way I set it up for One Lap last year. The first time I had the car at the Glen I entered the buss stop hot like I always do and although I had lots of front grip the rear stepped out and I ended up in the gravel pit. That was a transition at around 90 mph which should be near the limit not way over it.

I know time is tight so this has to be kind of plug and play or it won't work.
 

curtis

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Clarksville TN
Tim by the looks of the heat images on the link we could probably do something that has the leading edge about 2 or 3 inch in on the trunk lid and the height about 3 or 4 inches up from the trunk to the bottom of the wing. I had a thought today and will make some calls monday I figured out a way to get the plates cut larger than what my mill will do. Post up about that later after I find out more.
 

DR1665

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Oct 19, 2005
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Iowa City, IA
Why not just consider what Mitsubishi has already done on other saloons?

Mitsubishi-Lancer-WRC05_4.jpg


MITSUBISHI%20LANCER%20WRC%20RALLYE%20MONTE%20CARLO%202005.JPG
 

GreenGSX

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May 15, 2005
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Rochester, New York
Without giving too much away the team was offered a wing that is similar /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif to the AMS R2 wing that I linked to. So the design of the wing isn't an issue. What we need to know is how high off the deck should it go? Curis has pylons already that are 6" high which I thought was too low. I was thinking it should be close to the height of the roof.
 

curtis

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May 4, 2003
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Tim

James aka CR is taking the car out with yarn and a dowel later after easter day stuff. Data to come later to night /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/applause.gif
 
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