Making the swap from pump to E85

[GSTwithPSI]

So, my car is already pretty well set up to make the swap to E85. I plan on converting next spring, since the car will be sitting all winter. I just had a few questions I was hoping some of you guys who have done this could answer.

-What are you running for base fuel pressure?

-What open loop AFRs are you shooting for? Mid 11s?

-So, theoretically, I'd be fine cruising the 20 miles to an E85 station, filling up with E85, and cruising back to my house on a pump gas tune as long as I don't put my foot in it, correct? Obviously, I'd like to tune near my place, in case sh*t goes awry. But, as long as the car stays in closed loop I don't see why this won't work fine?

Anything I'm overlooking/missing? I have 1050s, Walbro 255 (rewired), AFPR, -6 AN pump hanger, etc.

 

[NateCrisman]

You'll be fine. Assuming your on DSMlink, just drop the global a bit and you'll be ballpark till you get in your area to really work on the tune.

 

[GSTwithPSI]

Thanks for the quick reply, Nate.

 

[Mn92gvr4]

Im running at 48 psi with 1120 injectors. Everything else im working on. Did you get a fact sheet with your injectors. That should tell you where to start with pressure

 

[strokin4dr]

Get a GM flex fuel sensor since you have ecmlink. I installed mine last december and had it working pretty much flawlessly within a day of so. It's so nice to dump whichever fuel I want in the car and drive. Not have to screw with the global fuel and the VE tables after it's setup is completely worth the effort.

Also get an aftermarket fuel rail that is anodized. E85 took a toll on my stock rail with only 6 months of use. People will say "you'll be fine"... I trusted the interwebz and ended up having aluminum scale flaking off in mine /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
Good luck!

 

[WaRrIoRs16]

With the flex fuel sensor ECMlink is able to automatically adjust the global fuel settings according to the ethanol content?

 

[donniekak]

Leave your wideband on a gas scale and just tune like your injectors are about 30% smaller. Shoot for 14.7 at idle cruise, and mid-high 11's wot.

 

[strokin4dr]

Quoting WaRrIoRs16:
With the flex fuel sensor ECMlink is able to automatically adjust the global fuel settings according to the ethanol content?


Yes.
It will also interpolate between your preset pump gas/E85 tunes depending on ethanol content. Will adjust timing tables according too.

 

[diambo4life]

Quoting donniekak:
Leave your wideband on a gas scale and just tune like your injectors are about 30% smaller. Shoot for 14.7 at idle cruise, and mid-high 11's wot.




That's what I do. I'm more careful switching from E85 back to pump than vice versa. If this is the first time running E, watch your air/fuel ratios (especially at WOT) like a hawk and expect to replace your fuel filter several times since it will get clogged pretty fast and as a result, the car will run lean.

I run a 38 base with my 1600cc's. I do this so I have headroom to run more boost. I try keeping my max line fuel pressure below 90psi.

 

[GSTwithPSI]

Thanks for all the replies, guys.


Quoting strokin4dr:
Get a GM flex fuel sensor since you have ecmlink. I installed mine last december and had it working pretty much flawlessly within a day of so. It's so nice to dump whichever fuel I want in the car and drive. Not have to screw with the global fuel and the VE tables after it's setup is completely worth the effort.

Also get an aftermarket fuel rail that is anodized. E85 took a toll on my stock rail with only 6 months of use. People will say "you'll be fine"... I trusted the interwebz and ended up having aluminum scale flaking off in mine /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
Good luck!



I would absolutely go with the ethanol sensor via ECMlink, problem is, it's not an option as long as I'm on a MAF. I'm completely out of inputs, so unless I switch to SD, no ethanol sensor for me.

I'll be on the lookout for a rail.



Quoting donniekak:
Leave your wideband on a gas scale and just tune like your injectors are about 30% smaller. Shoot for 14.7 at idle cruise, and mid-high 11's wot.



You're saying shoot for 11 AFRs (gauge reading on the gas scale) while on E85, correct?

I completely understand how lambda/pump AFRs/E85AFRs work. Just want to make sure I'm understanding you right.



Quoting diambo4life:
That's what I do. I'm more careful switching from E85 back to pump than vice versa. If this is the first time running E, watch your air/fuel ratios (especially at WOT) like a hawk and expect to replace your fuel filter several times since it will get clogged pretty fast and as a result, the car will run lean.

I run a 38 base with my 1600cc's. I do this so I have headroom to run more boost. I try keeping my max line fuel pressure below 90psi.



My plan is leave my base pressure where it's currently at (about 38psi) and then start with a global fuel adjustment of -35.0% (per the ECMlink wiki/global fuel formula). As far as the fuel filter goes, I'm currently running a stock one. I've heard people run the stock filters on E85 without issue, so I'd like to hear your guys' thoughts on that.


Lastly, and most importantly, how are you guys tuning this sh*t? I've always tuned by knock. Obviously, that's not a great idea with E85. What thresholds are you guys looking at to determine when you're on the edge? I know EGT is a good tool in cases like this, but mine is in the O2 housing, so it's not reliable for tuning. I heard peak timing numbers ranging from 15 to 22* up top. That's a big range. What are you guys looking at peak timing wise? I'd like to aim for the 30psi mark, if that helps.

 

[prove_it]

Your wideband reads in lambda, then coverts it to an air/fuel ratio display. Lambda is the same no matter the fuel, Ethanol is around 7.8, but the wideband and link do all the converting and math for you.

Literally all you need to do to start on E85 is COMPLETELY drain your fuel tank, add E85, add some global fuel (start at around 20%) and fire it up then dial in like you would with gas.

Done.

Draining the tank is very critical because even one gallon of gas will dilute the E85 down to E60. If you do it now, stations will be switching to winter blend which is around E70. That one gallon will bring it down even more. Driving til empty and light is on will leave 3 gallons or so which will really mess up your conversion.

 

[GSTwithPSI]

 

[GSTwithPSI]

I started dialing in the car on E85 last night. 3 pulls later I logged 43lbs/min with the bastard 20g on a VERY conservative tune. 21psi, and only 16* peak timing up top. Previously, I never logged anything over 39ish lbs/min on 93 pump. Needless to say, there's still room for more boost and timing. With more boost, I'll probably need to bump the base fuel pressure to drop my IDC, though.

Oh, and zero knock /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif

 

[prove_it]

11.4:1? Damn, that's thick. Pull it back to 12.3:1 and add 4 degrees timing.

Yea yea, you already knew that.


43lbs is getting pretty good on a bastard at 21psi. Good job. I bet it feels wayyyyy better.

Welcome to the popcorn crew! You won't go back now. I miss the smell at stoplights. yum.

 

[biglady112]

Leave it in the mid 11's.

 

[prove_it]

On E85? Why? Every car I've seen makes more power at 12-12.5


Note saying your wrong, cause I know you know your stuff, curious why you think that.

 

[GSTwithPSI]

Yeah, I think I'll try and lean it out a bit eventually. I'll definitely add some more timing when I really dial in the tune.

What's cool, is the ONLY adjustment I made from my pump tune to the E85 tune was adjust global fuel. Basically, I started at the calculated global fuel rate based on the formula, then saw where I was at. At that point, I made a pull, and saw how the WB lined up with the AFRatioEst. I was pretty rich, so I just bumped the global fuel until the two lined up. No adjustments to the MAF (as expected) and no adjustments to the DA fuel/timing tables. This is also the reason I'm still on the rich side, becuz basically pump gas tune bro.

It's pretty legit to see solid gains by simply swapping to better fuel. I'm confident that a bump in boost will net more airflow on the bastard, too.

The car has never pulled so hard up top. It absolutely rips all the way to redline. We'll see if one more trip to the track before it closes for the season is in the cards...

 

[prove_it]

Now you get why I loved my S16g on E85. Pulls hard as F*CK. Just wait til you get into the 20* timing area. You think it's fun now....

How do you like the exhaust smell? Pretty nice huh?



Plus you get the satisfaction of putting money in America's corn producers instead of the Middle eastern oil kings that fund the terrorist groups that kill Americans and the French. (Was that too Wookalarish?)

 

[biglady112]

The fact that we have been using the fuel since 2005 and have tuned 75+ mitsubishis on it. If you are looking for repeatable, and reliable performance, you will leave it in the 11's and not listen to others advice on the timing. Once you get into more advanced tuning that involves using tools other than a collective wideband and a shitty, primitive knock sensor, you will find out what tuning is really all about. You have a turbocharger to make power with, use it. Wire the wastegate shut and keep "total" timing in the 18-23* range(each car is different) and enjoy a 115-120mph with repeatable performance day in and day out(110-115mph if your car is a pig).

 

[GSTwithPSI]

I assume you're referring to EGT for "advanced" tuning? What else are you alluding to?

Also, this isn't a dedicated racecar like you're used to building. This gets driven on the street and for pleasure, as well as being flogged on the track from time to time. I need an operable wastegate. I'm not sure the wiring it shut would get me anyways, as I don't have an external gate. This car is definitely a heavy pig; not one of the gutted Colts you're used to running 10's with.

18-23* seems to be the general consensus for peak timing up top on E85. I appreciate your feedback.