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good DD brakes?

Brunoboy

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Apr 25, 2008
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San Bruno,CA Home of SFO
I dont plan on AutoX my car or anything, I rather Drag and the occasional mountain driving, so Big Brake kit is out of the question. Would Hawk HPS pads be alright paired with Blanks? and is anyone running Slotted? how are those for DD's? Just wondering what everyone is using for brakes and what their use is for.
-Shane
 

4thStroke

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Oct 22, 2007
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Location
Vancouver, WA
I have slotted DBA rotors and HPS pads, and I daily drive the car.

I'm a firm believer in high quality slotted or properly drilled rotors. If the car sees high speeds (100+), it will often times need to stop quickly, the slotted/drilled rotors help here (and obviously, the pads). If I were to buy a blank, it'd be Brembo or another reputable company, I've seen cheap rotors warp way too quickly under the conditions a lot of people assume that a drilled rotor is high quality. If you drive like my grandma, you can probably get away with an eBay rotor.

With pads, choose these for what suit you. If you drive aggressive, invest in a more aggressive pad, just be sure to watch the pad wear. Again, if you drive like my grandma, you can probably get away with a cheap eBay pad.

As for my car right now, I've had a rear caliper freeze on me and had the rotor glowing red in the daytime and I have never felt the car shutter from typical rotor warpage. I run cheap pads in the rear since very little braking takes place back there and I don't feel that a pad that costs twice as much is going to make a noticeable difference.

The front end is noisy with the HPS pads. They squeak a lot. I don't drive my car with the assumption it's going to be the most comfortable, so it does not bother me all that much, but I do notice them, especially with the windows down.

The car stops pretty well now, to the point in which I was contemplating a big brake upgrade, but feel the cost is justified elsewhere. They aren't the best, but have done fine for aggressive driving of all sorts.

The HPS pads (or any good pad) and DBA rotors (or any good rotor) not only cost more up front, but you will be replacing them more often as well, so be aware of that.
 

Brunoboy

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I am going to order the SS lines for Evo Suspension from Tunersnations and the Hawk HPS as well, I asked about the slotted rotors because I saw Garfield has a front pair for a nice price but then again wanted to know if a good front rotor is all I needed. Thanks for the information, and whoever else is running similiar setups please post.
-shane
 

Lonewolf64

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Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
1,197
Location
Birmingham, Alabama
I run brembo blanks all around with porterfield R4S pads. The car stops very decently for my purposes. It has probably more than necessary braking power for just a DD but good brakes are a matter of safety so I do not mind paying the premium for the peace of mind.
 

JSchleim18

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Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
4,801
Location
Long Island, NY
Hawk HPS or Porterfield R4S pads. Top 2 IMO.

Brembo blanks or a quality slotted rotor like 4thstroke mentioned.
 

cheekychimp

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Apr 19, 2004
Messages
7,333
Location
East Sussex, U.K.
Shane,

What wheels are you running or intending to run? As you know you can spend a huge amount of money on brakes or you can look at much cheaper setups. I don't really advocate skimping money on brakes, but at the same time the most expensive setups are not always the best for street cars. Remember, a track only car may never see wet weather never mind road salt.

Different pads can give better braking performance but this usually comes at the expense of additional noise, additional brake dust and/or shorter rotor life. Again I stress brakes can save lives so don't skimp on performance but if your setup is so damn noisy your girlfriend refuses to get in the car or you don't want to drive the car because you are scared of getting your nice white wheels dirty again it starts to detract from the whole pleasure of driving. Worse still if you are on a budget and end up prematurely wearing out your rotors and don't have money to replace them you could end up with worse braking performance than stock.

The stock brakes are not bad. If you are not satisfied with the performance, chances are you are either no longer 'stock' and are running power levels that are over running the factory brakes or you have failing components in your system. Before you splash out on Brembos, custom brackets and new 'racing formula' pads, you would be well advised to properly flush and bleed your system, replace your aging brake fluid with new stuff of the appropriate DOT standard and replace any worn lines, master cylinders etc. Once my cars are running smoothly, one of the first things I ever address is the brakes, BEFORE I start making the car faster. It still amazes me as a cop how many idiots increase power levels to double or three times that of their stock car and never upgrade the brakes, well unless you call racing red caliper paint and taking a hand drill to the stock rotors 'upgrades'.

If you do need better than stock performance you essentially need to increase friction. You can do this by adding more pots i.e. larger calipers or increasing the rotor size. Ideally you should do both. If you are using stock wheels however you can't really increase rotor size much. You can move to larger calipers but whereas going from a single to a double caliper can make quite a difference and might work without increasing your rim size you will find that moving up to four or six pot calipers gets almost impossible with a stock sized wheel.

More friction creates more heat. Braking is transferring energy and that energy has to go somewhere. Larger rotors dissipate heat better, so do slotted and perforated rotors. Notice I use the term perforated as I do not believe you should ever drill a rotor. Genuine perforated disks are usually cast from molds that incorporate the holes so that no stress fractures are incurred during the manufacturing process. Drilling can easily cause stress fractures or make the rotors more susceptible to developing them. For a street car, slotted rotors are in my opinion far superior and far more reliable. You will most likely get different opinions on this and in truth in general daily driving duties, drilled rotors will most likely serve you without any issues. If however you do run too hot, stress fractures can cause a rotor to crack and even disintegrate and chances are if that happens you are going to be going fast, braking hard, and coming up to some sort of hazard whether it be a bend or the back of a semi and believe me that is not the time to find out you made the wrong choice.

The cheapest efficient brake setups are generally created by going to larger 'stock' setups from other makes or models of cars. It's generally cheaper to just go with bigger rims and fit rotors and calipers from a bigger or more powerful car. Alternatively you can look for brakes from newer cars working on the basis that brakes have benefited from advances in technologically over the years just like most other mechanical components. Consequently you will see setups on the VR4 from the Mitsubishi 3000 GT, muscle cars like Camaros and Mustangs and from later model EVOs.

My advice to you is to get your stock brake system in tip top shape with a thorough overhaul of all it's parts. Replace any worn components and put in fresh brake fluid and bleed the system. Start your list of upgrades with the booster from a 3KGT and look at using a master from something like a Q45. Research good street pads and if you can, invest in some slotted or better quality rotors. If that is still not enough, you need to go bigger. So called big brake setups do not have to be very expensive but in general, they will require bigger rims.

Just in case you haven't got the hint yet, there are a lot of guys on here running very well maintained stock (or close to stock) setups that likely stop better than guys running huge rotors and fancy racing heritage calipers on worn out and ill maintained brake systems that don't produce enough hydraulic pressure to operate the stock calipers efficiently never mind multi pot 'racing' ones.

Capish?
 

alansupra94

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Mar 3, 2010
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Wayne,NJ
Cheekychimp, our resident expert in everything. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worthy.gif
 

KiNgMaRtY

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Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
835
Location
Corona, CA
For a DD Brembo Blanks and some Porterfield R4-S all around are more than plenty and great for Canyon Driving. I have had that setup in bot my 2g and My VR-4. Had it in my STi aswell but that doesn't count because of the Brembo calipers /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 

Damn asked about DD brakes got a dissertation on better brakes lol damn cheekychimp you are the man great reading and very informative. I completely agree with you though too many people build fast cars and forget about improving the brakes on the cars. A wise man once told me build your car from the ground up son and I always do brakes and suspension first.Another thing is like you said check the entire system before dropping coin on a new setup i.e. KISS(keep it simple stupid). It still amazes me how good the stock brakes and even the suspension on the Galant is.My honda accord with equipped with ground control coil overs, Tokico Illuminas, slotted rotors, stainless lines and hawk brake pads does not stop or handle any better than my galant with kyb's up front stock shocks in the back and parts store rotors and pads. With that being said the car is no longer stock so evo suspension and tuners nation brake upgrades are next on the agenda......
 

4thStroke

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Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
1,864
Location
Vancouver, WA
click

I'm still 4 lug. I ended up getting the rears through English Racing.

I think a lot of the time there is a misconception that the more pots, the better the caliper. This is absolutely not always true, I believe it is often time used as a marketing ploy. My Mazdaspeed3 had single pot calipers that Mazda used from a Volvo model. That car stopped incredibly well.

I have yet to drive anything with Brembos that has failed to impress me. I've always been impressed with Brembo, but slapping Brembos (or any caliper, for that matter) on a car with a hydraulic system designed for another caliper may not produce the same results as a car that had the brake system built around the caliper (assuming car manufacturers order an existing Brembo caliper as their OEM caliper).
 

4thStroke

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Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
1,864
Location
Vancouver, WA
Just the 4000 series and they've done good so far. The car sees many slow downs from 100+ and they have not warped.
 

Brunoboy

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
2,880
Location
San Bruno,CA Home of SFO
Quoting cheekychimp:
Shane,

What wheels are you running or intending to run? As you know you can spend a huge amount of money on brakes or you can look at much cheaper setups. I don't really advocate skimping money on brakes, but at the same time the most expensive setups are not always the best for street cars. Remember, a track only car may never see wet weather never mind road salt.

Different pads can give better braking performance but this usually comes at the expense of additional noise, additional brake dust and/or shorter rotor life. Again I stress brakes can save lives so don't skimp on performance but if your setup is so damn noisy your girlfriend refuses to get in the car or you don't want to drive the car because you are scared of getting your nice white wheels dirty again it starts to detract from the whole pleasure of driving. Worse still if you are on a budget and end up prematurely wearing out your rotors and don't have money to replace them you could end up with worse braking performance than stock.

The stock brakes are not bad. If you are not satisfied with the performance, chances are you are either no longer 'stock' and are running power levels that are over running the factory brakes or you have failing components in your system. Before you splash out on Brembos, custom brackets and new 'racing formula' pads, you would be well advised to properly flush and bleed your system, replace your aging brake fluid with new stuff of the appropriate DOT standard and replace any worn lines, master cylinders etc. Once my cars are running smoothly, one of the first things I ever address is the brakes, BEFORE I start making the car faster. It still amazes me as a cop how many idiots increase power levels to double or three times that of their stock car and never upgrade the brakes, well unless you call racing red caliper paint and taking a hand drill to the stock rotors 'upgrades'.

If you do need better than stock performance you essentially need to increase friction. You can do this by adding more pots i.e. larger calipers or increasing the rotor size. Ideally you should do both. If you are using stock wheels however you can't really increase rotor size much. You can move to larger calipers but whereas going from a single to a double caliper can make quite a difference and might work without increasing your rim size you will find that moving up to four or six pot calipers gets almost impossible with a stock sized wheel.

More friction creates more heat. Braking is transferring energy and that energy has to go somewhere. Larger rotors dissipate heat better, so do slotted and perforated rotors. Notice I use the term perforated as I do not believe you should ever drill a rotor. Genuine perforated disks are usually cast from molds that incorporate the holes so that no stress fractures are incurred during the manufacturing process. Drilling can easily cause stress fractures or make the rotors more susceptible to developing them. For a street car, slotted rotors are in my opinion far superior and far more reliable. You will most likely get different opinions on this and in truth in general daily driving duties, drilled rotors will most likely serve you without any issues. If however you do run too hot, stress fractures can cause a rotor to crack and even disintegrate and chances are if that happens you are going to be going fast, braking hard, and coming up to some sort of hazard whether it be a bend or the back of a semi and believe me that is not the time to find out you made the wrong choice.

The cheapest efficient brake setups are generally created by going to larger 'stock' setups from other makes or models of cars. It's generally cheaper to just go with bigger rims and fit rotors and calipers from a bigger or more powerful car. Alternatively you can look for brakes from newer cars working on the basis that brakes have benefited from advances in technologically over the years just like most other mechanical components. Consequently you will see setups on the VR4 from the Mitsubishi 3000 GT, muscle cars like Camaros and Mustangs and from later model EVOs.

My advice to you is to get your stock brake system in tip top shape with a thorough overhaul of all it's parts. Replace any worn components and put in fresh brake fluid and bleed the system. Start your list of upgrades with the booster from a 3KGT and look at using a master from something like a Q45. Research good street pads and if you can, invest in some slotted or better quality rotors. If that is still not enough, you need to go bigger. So called big brake setups do not have to be very expensive but in general, they will require bigger rims.

Just in case you haven't got the hint yet, there are a lot of guys on here running very well maintained stock (or close to stock) setups that likely stop better than guys running huge rotors and fancy racing heritage calipers on worn out and ill maintained brake systems that don't produce enough hydraulic pressure to operate the stock calipers efficiently never mind multi pot 'racing' ones.

Capish?


Good read, thanks for the clarification and options I have, I run on 17x7 ADR wheels that came with my car. ( lop sop chow yerng rims if you ask me) I dO have the Evo viii suspension with tanabe lowering springs on the car, and will order the ss lines from GW along with the hawk hps pads. I saw GW had slotted fronts as well, do rear brakes have to be just as good as the fronts?
 

Tre3zy

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Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Messages
602
Location
South San Francisco, CA
80% of the braking is done by the front brakes... so you do the math /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

4thStroke

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Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
1,864
Location
Vancouver, WA
brunoboy, no, they don't. Like Tr3zy said, most of the braking is done in the front (not sure it's as drastic as 80/20), so the rear won't go through pads or rotors as fast or be exposed to the same pressure and heat as the front. I was going to go with Brembo blanks for the rear, but English had the matching DBAs come in, so I went that route.
 

cheekychimp

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Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Messages
7,333
Location
East Sussex, U.K.
Quoting brunoboy:

Good read, thanks for the clarification and options I have, I run on 17x7 ADR wheels that came with my car. ( lop sop chow yerng rims if you ask me) I dO have the Evo viii suspension with tanabe lowering springs on the car, and will order the ss lines from GW along with the hawk hps pads. I saw GW had slotted fronts as well, do rear brakes have to be just as good as the fronts?



That's "Lap Sap Chau Yeung" LOL but anyway 17s are a pretty nice wheel size for the car and you have plenty of options so you could put together pretty much any setup that fits under your current wheels and be fairly sure that any future 17s should clear the setup. I say fairly sure because rim design can affect brake clearance so it's always a good idea to check that before buying new wheels if you do have a big brake kit.

The nice thing about a stock setup if it works for you is that pretty much any wheel will fit over it which gives you the option to run a nice set of 17s in the summer and switch back to some stock 15s in winter when the roads get crappy!

There is a lot of good information in this thread from other members. Your front brakes do do most of the work but just be aware of the principle of brake bias and balance since it is possible to go too far. Not likely to be an issue with just upgraded pads and better rotors but could be an issue if you ever switch to a big brake setup in the future. A relatively cheap upgrade that you can consider in the future (if you do decide on bigger brakes) is to do the 3KGT rear end trailing arms swap. The 3KGT uses twin pot rears if I recall correctly and also has an independent drum emergency brake which makes it possible to fit even larger calipers at the back if necessary without losing the emergency brake (bad news for a DD!!!). I think if you do that swap and switch to 5 lug hubs at the same time you can just retain the 3KGT hubs and use the OEM caliper brackets. Find a 3KGT with a decent condition rear end in the junkyard and you are on to the beginnings of a cheap stock appearing and very capable brake setup especially if it still has the front calipers as well.
 

Brunoboy

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Apr 25, 2008
Messages
2,880
Location
San Bruno,CA Home of SFO
Any 3kgt or only vr4's?
 

cheekychimp

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Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Messages
7,333
Location
East Sussex, U.K.
Now you are testing me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif The guy to ask is Red Two the Rangi Kiwi. He has looked into this more than I have. We were trying to figure out a way to use the significantly beefier 3KGT VR4 rear diff in our cars but the situation was somewhat messed up by the ratios. I think there is a 3.545 and 3.307 but no 3.909.

To try to answer your question, I believe the trailing arms and hubs from any 3KGT would work, but I don't think the NA cars got the big front brakes. But please someone else chime in if you know otherwise because I really am not 100% sure on this one.
 
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