Stronger valve springs Questions

[fivestardsm]

Ok.. I have been looking through post all day, but I can't come up with anything usefull. It might just be me.

What I am looking for is a set of valve springs that would offer a higher springrate than stock. I am running a set of Street grind 546/547 web cams ( cam card ) with 3G lifters.
The reason That I want to get the higher rated springs is because the tolerances are tighter on my motor because of decking/ surfacing of the head and block. I Figured out that I should be safe with the extra bit of thickness from the OEM mitsu MLS, But I still want to be safe when I bounce into the higher R's.

I do remember reading somewhere, sometime ago about shimming the springs to give them a little more compression, but I never really knew much about this, or if it was advised. If anybody has "actually" heard of this, Please let me know.

I was looking at some info on the evo honeycomb springs, but I cant find anything decisive on the specs to say that they are much better than stockers. I'm trying to keep this in the lower price range, so any info an a good setup would help.

Thanks... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[vr4play]

If you are on a budget you could use evo 8 springs and retainers. They are not much stiffer but are beehive and do much better at high revs than the standard style springs our cars came with and they have aluminum retainers which help with valve float by reducing weight. If your not on budget then there are tons of options out there. Titanium retainers are not a good idea for a dd because they can wear.

 

[Terry Posten]

Best bang for buck is the Supertech Single Spring Valve Springs click from JNZ Tuning.

They run about $130 shipped. You can use stock retainers and seats. They up the load from the stock springs (around 65lbs) to around 80lbs.

No need to shim and wont bind.

I am using them with BC280 cams and rev to 7500.

 

[ktmrider]

"Shimming" the valve springs is done to ensure the spring is exerting the proper amount of force on the valve to close it properly against the seat.
Too weak and the valve can slap/bounce against the seat when closing or in our boosted cases the valve can be pushed open slighly by the intake pressure.
Too strong and the valvetrain ( cam, rockers, lifters, valves and seats, etc ) will wear prematurely. This condition required shaving of the valve spring cup area.
Biggest concern with increasing the spring tension ( apart from the wear side ) is "coil bind". The spring can only compress so much and adding shims makes the compressed height/travel smaller. You measure the bind tolerance based on camshaft gross lift using a dial caliper.
You mentioned a concern for decking the head and/or block. Since our engines are OHC designs you won't have to worry about the valvetrain geometries ( push angle or lift ) but it will have an effect on cam timing. Adjustable cam gears take care of that.
Weight reduction is easiest way to prevent valve float at higher rev's. Titanium is the best compromise between weight and wear but like mentioned may require more frequent changes. Beehive springs provide good weight loss with no/low impact on strength or performance.

 

[prove_it]

I'm using a set of Brian Crower Springs and Retainers. They have an amazing fit and are only a bit stronger than evo springs. You have to remember that the 4G63 has a weak high end unless your running a huge turbo and massive boost. There is no point in going higher than the stock redline. Power drops fast and valve float usually occurs around 8000 rpm or higher. Shimming is only used for installing springs to insure a proper closing pressure and seat pressure. If your replacing your springs better plan on replacing the exhaust valve guides since they tend to wear out easily. The Brian Crower spring set is great and perfect for anyone looking for a little more valve control. Usually you can get a set for around 200. Comes with titanium retainers too.

 

[Rausch]

^ That is very subjective.

Given what the OP has stated thus far, I'd say that Evo springs or a reasonable aftermarket set would do him just fine. You obvoiusly don't want something too hardcore, and I think something with a slightly higher seat pressure would give you the piece of mind you are looking for. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[prove_it]

Quoting vr4play:
If you are on a budget you could use evo 8 springs and retainers. They are not much stiffer but are beehive and do much better at high revs than the standard style springs our cars came with and they have aluminum retainers which help with valve float by reducing weight. If your not on budget then there are tons of options out there. Titanium retainers are not a good idea for a dd because they can wear.



Just curious about how you know that titanium retainers wear. So far I've only seen one retainer actually fail on a honda spinning 10K. I think that had more to do with it than anything.

 

[Dialcaliper]

Ti retainers are made with much closer tolerances than they used to be - Titanium is fairly soft compared to the spring steel (so are aluminum alloys for that matter, although they don't tend to gall like titanium), and if the springs start rotating on the retainers, the Ti will wear. It's mostly only a problem when they try to make them as light and thin as possible. Most people will not run into any problems - it's like the newer alloy aluminum rods - they're technically a wear item that you're supposed to check, but many people use them on the street without any issues.

Also, they tend to make them out of the harder more expensive Ti alloys now, since they have become cheaper to manufacture (6Al-4V). Other Ti Alloys tend to be softer.

Honestly, it's not much of a problem because our motors rarely stay assembled long enough for it to be an issue. The jackstand modification greatly increases the life of titanium retainers...

If you're really worried, get your springs moly disulfide dry-film coated by SwainTech or another coating company.

 

[curtis]

The local machine stop installed a set of after market beehive springs and titanium retainers on my buddies evo. They tested the stockers with there bench tester the new springs are only like 2 or 3 lbs more seat pressure than the stockers and the evo's come with a super light alloy retainer that is actually way lighter than what he bought to replace them. In my opinion run a set of evo springs, retainers and exhaust valves if you can find them.

The exhaust valves are like 8 grams lighter each.

 

[prove_it]

Quoting Dialcaliper:
Ti retainers are made with much closer tolerances than they used to be - Titanium is fairly soft compared to the spring steel (so are aluminum alloys for that matter, although they don't tend to gall like titanium), and if the springs start rotating on the retainers, the Ti will wear. It's mostly only a problem when they try to make them as light and thin as possible. Most people will not run into any problems - it's like the newer alloy aluminum rods - they're technically a wear item that you're supposed to check, but many people use them on the street without any issues.

Also, they tend to make them out of the harder more expensive Ti alloys now, since they have become cheaper to manufacture (6Al-4V). Other Ti Alloys tend to be softer.

Honestly, it's not much of a problem because our motors rarely stay assembled long enough for it to be an issue. The jackstand modification greatly increases the life of titanium retainers...

If you're really worried, get your springs moly disulfide dry-film coated by SwainTech or another coating company.




Well said friend. After reading the post about how titanium retainers wear I thought I'd dig up some real world research. I've at a couple of performance shops(I'm a certified Tech) and never seen any problems with titanium. Only on one B18C engine have I seen a titanium retainer fail and he drove it everyday at 10k for over 10,000 miles before that happened.

I contacted Modern Performance who builds a lot of 4G63's and no one there has seen any issues what so ever with the 4G. Going deeper I contacted Brian Crower and they said the same. If fact what Dialcaliper said was about the same as what BC told me.

Fact: 4G63 will only wear into titanium retainers only if there is a major flaw in the retainer, Which is next to impossible with BC. And will only wear if the rpms exceed 9000 everyday. We all know that 4g63s will never see that. Even the 72 trim 1000 horse evo at our shop only tops 8500.

So rest at ease. I personally say to the OP, spend 200 dollars and get the BC springs and retainer kit. It's an amazing value and will last longer than most of the other parts in your car.

 

[fivestardsm]

I would like to say thank you to ALL of you that have contributed imput to this.
I belive that I will first wait another day or 2 and see if I can get a set of EVO springs from a friend(free+shipping), and If not I will then make the decision on the supertech or brian crower's. I have to wait to see what my funds are going to be, I ran into a finacial issue yesterday that I am hopefully going to be-able to take care of by early next week.