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Making a top mount intercooler and have a plumbing question.


rdomeck
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006427 posted 07/19/11 09:01 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I am making a top mounted intercooler and am trying to figure out if the outlet pipe of the turbo (big16G) should stay at the 1 3/8" id. all the way to the inter cooler or should I step it up to the 2 1/2" that I plan to use for the exit into the manifold. Total length between the turbo and intercooler will be about 8" and the length between the intercooler and the manifold will be about 4"



I will get some photo's uploaded tomorrow of the intercooler sitting in the car. I plan to do an inlet in the hood that will look similar to the 4th gen Evo's.



EVO III 16G, manifold and O2 housing, 3" exhaust, Evo 9 IC, 3" GM MAF, GM IAT, GM MAP, LC1 wideband, V3 Full, RC 750's, Aeromotive 340 fuel pump, Adj. FPR. Stock internals. Baer front brakes, Evo 9 Ohlin's.

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Terry Posten
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006440 posted 07/19/11 09:37 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
If it was my setup and I had room, I would flair it up to 2" as smooth as possible. Then you can do 2.5" from the core to the TB.



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rdomeck
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006444 posted 07/19/11 09:48 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Terry, Thanks for the input. Do you think I could use a hose adapter or should I take the time to machine a funnel to the correct taper?



EVO III 16G, manifold and O2 housing, 3" exhaust, Evo 9 IC, 3" GM MAF, GM IAT, GM MAP, LC1 wideband, V3 Full, RC 750's, Aeromotive 340 fuel pump, Adj. FPR. Stock internals. Baer front brakes, Evo 9 Ohlin's.

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Terry Posten
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006466 posted 07/19/11 10:56 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I would use a silicone reducer but that is only because I have no machine skills or tools.

But a cone would be best.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006484 posted 07/19/11 11:43 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I had a 3 to 2.5 on mine at one time. One Sunday evening I decided to cut and taper the cone and do it properly. After I got it all done, the car lost 2 to 3 psi so a reducer is a big restriction. But yes go to 2 or 2.250 on the hot and then up to 2.5 on the cold side.


But why a top mount are you going to box it in later and make a water to air. water has a 4 times greater latient heat of evaporation than air to air. So it is worth it especially on a core as large as what you have you could get close to ambient with no problem.



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Barnes
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006496 posted 07/20/11 12:16 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm really confused why you would do a top mount setup.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006500 posted 07/20/11 12:24 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I'm sure it'll be cool. Very unique



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ktmrider
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006503 posted 07/20/11 12:29 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Not the greatest way to do an IC.

Scoobaru originally used the TM option to prevent damage on WRC cars if/when front-end impacts happened. Later they found it heat-soaked too much unless using special coatings or plastics.

Requires using a well sealing hoodscoop plus an undertray setup to generate a low pressure condition in the engine bay. Otherwise air will not flow thru the TM which could even impact the radiator.

GL with the project tho!



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mistaVR4
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006662 posted 07/20/11 10:57 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting GSX_TC:

I'm sure it'll be cool. Very unique





Ok man, you have contributed, but when people call you a troll, they are correct...Try making more contributions to the site, rather than just posting your opinion on every post you can find?

EDIT: also, please work on your grammer, that seems to be very important on this site, you missed a period on the quote listed above....



SteveW
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Edited by mistaVR4 (07/20/11 11:03 PM)

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broxma
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006706 posted 07/21/11 09:03 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I don't mean to be causing a ruckus, but that looks like a radiator core. Besides that, how do you plan on getting enough airflow across the core to actually cool the charge? Even with a larger style STI hood scoop, the math barely supports cooling of the standard STI TMIC, which looks to be about half the size of the core you are using. I am down for being creative and trying new things, but this seems like a step backwards, especially given the space constraints of the 4G63 under the hood. Where do you plan on mounting this thing? I assume it will be sitting somewhere in the area to the passenger side of the motor which means a custom offset hoodscoop yes?

/brox



I am big into recycling though and if your not into sacrifice or burnt offerings, you may want to stick with 93 octane.

/brox

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toybreaker Galant VR4.org Moderator
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006708 posted 07/21/11 09:14 AM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting ktmrider:

Not the greatest way to do an IC.

Scoobaru originally used the TM option to prevent damage on WRC cars if/when front-end impacts happened. Later they found it heat-soaked too much unless using special coatings or plastics.

Requires using a well sealing hoodscoop plus an undertray setup to generate a low pressure condition in the engine bay. Otherwise air will not flow thru the TM which could even impact the radiator.

GL with the project tho!




Good post, Mike, (especially the part in bold)!



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beaner
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006725 posted 07/21/11 12:24 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
SteveW, if he is a troll, you are a shitty grammar cop.

Quoting mistaVR4:

also, please work on your grammer, that seems to be very important on this site, you missed a period on the quote listed above....



Grammar is spelled with an A.
You incorrectly use 2 comma splices.
Your run-on sentence was ended with an incorrect ellipsis.

I won't even bother with the top half of your equally contributing post.

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CutlassJim
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006726 posted 07/21/11 12:32 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I want to troll!

PM sent!

HAHA!

I agree with all the tech associated with this thread included the fact that topmounts suck. Yes I said fact. They are very hard to get to work properly and work meh when they do. I'm also curious as to how you set this thing up.

Oh and that isn't a radiator core just a super cheap intercooler core. They are on Ebay all the time. Would be better as a water to air core.



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rdomeck
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006768 posted 07/21/11 05:06 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Opinions......Wow there are lots of opinions! The cooler is not a cheap one off of Ebay. It is one that I used to put on the 3.3 turbo Porsche's back when I was a Porsche mechanic. They actually work very well.

I like the idea of a top mounted intercooler and they can be made to work well with a little duct work. I have put two of these into use on a GT-1 Porsche. I would use one for the street cars pushing well into the 450 H.P. range!

If I don't end up being able to make it work I'll flip it around and use it at the front. Safety is a big concern of mine as this will be my daily driver that I put my 3 year old twins in and I don't like the idea of cutting up the front bumper to gain performance!

Thanks for the input and the helpful input. If you guys are interested I'll post some pictures of my plan soon.



EVO III 16G, manifold and O2 housing, 3" exhaust, Evo 9 IC, 3" GM MAF, GM IAT, GM MAP, LC1 wideband, V3 Full, RC 750's, Aeromotive 340 fuel pump, Adj. FPR. Stock internals. Baer front brakes, Evo 9 Ohlin's.

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belize1334
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006783 posted 07/21/11 05:47 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
I appreciate that you're going a different route with your setup. Can't wait to see how it turns out.



Roger B. Scott
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Lonewolf64
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006785 posted 07/21/11 05:57 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
If you don't want to cut into your bumper but still want performance you should look into a water to air IC.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006794 posted 07/21/11 07:11 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting broxma:

I don't mean to be causing a ruckus, but that looks like a radiator core. Besides that, how do you plan on getting enough airflow across the core to actually cool the charge? Even with a larger style STI hood scoop, the math barely supports cooling of the standard STI TMIC, which looks to be about half the size of the core you are using. I am down for being creative and trying new things, but this seems like a step backwards, especially given the space constraints of the 4G63 under the hood. Where do you plan on mounting this thing? I assume it will be sitting somewhere in the area to the passenger side of the motor which means a custom offset hoodscoop yes?

/brox




It's a tube/fin core.



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belize1334
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006925 posted 07/22/11 12:21 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
C'mon people. He came in here asking for simple advice on pipe tapering and diameter and you all start spouting off about how his underlying design is flawed. Stay on topic and stop nay-saying just because somebody is going against the conventional wisdom. If nobody ever stepped outside the box we'd all be driving Ford 5.0 Mustangs.



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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006941 posted 07/22/11 03:15 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Quoting rdomeck:

Safety is a big concern of mine as this will be my daily driver that I put my 3 year old twins in and I don't like the idea of cutting up the front bumper to gain performance!






In a wreck bad enough to hurt occupants, I really don't think the USDM front bumper will help to protect you any more than one that is hacked or even a JDM unit.



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Justin_Cosgrove
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006988 posted 07/22/11 06:47 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Interesting project, I like that you've thought outside the box. People are mentioning the downsides to a top mount but forgetting to mention the plus sides, one is the very short tract from turbo to throttle body. The Mitsubishi RVR (Sportwagon or something like that in the US) has a factory top mount on the 4g63. I've seen a few top mount set-ups on porches, NSXs as well as some cars that weren't produced as turbos (maybe due to frontal space). The race cars I've seen have often been enclosed with polycarbonate sheet with a couple of 3" ducts forcing air in.

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rdomeck
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1006998 posted 07/22/11 08:19 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Thanks for some positive reinforcement. I was beginning to wonder if I should have even ask the question. I measured the factory piping last night and I came up with 98" That's over 8 feet of plumbing to push through. I will end up with 13" of piping. I am thinking of making a smaller radiator and A/C condenser so that I will have a clear path of air going into the bottom of the intercooler and venting out the top. For now I am going to have to run it with the top coming in and venting through the bottom as I just don't have time to do the duct work until this fall. I will be running with a very simple hood opening as well!

I still believe with some simple duct work for now and maybe some fans I can have some success.

I also want to measure the pressure and temperature difference before and after to see what I'm loosing and gaining. Anybody know what kind of temperature or pressure drop I should be looking for? I have welded in some places on each end tank that I can tap for sensors. I will post some pictures later tonight!



EVO III 16G, manifold and O2 housing, 3" exhaust, Evo 9 IC, 3" GM MAF, GM IAT, GM MAP, LC1 wideband, V3 Full, RC 750's, Aeromotive 340 fuel pump, Adj. FPR. Stock internals. Baer front brakes, Evo 9 Ohlin's.

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Justin_Cosgrove
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1007009 posted 07/22/11 09:30 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
It's crossed my mind before to try a top mount myself. I've found the most pleasure to be had is in deviating slightly from what others believe to be the ideal. There is supposed to be a decent drop in under hood temperature to be had, if you put washers between the bonnet and hinges to let the air excape. also it might give you another 1/2" of space to play with. A series 4 rx-7 hood scoop would look good A book that covers this type of thing and the testing of it too is "21st Centuary Performance" click I believe it is the bible for people like yourself.

Here's an RX7 race car I painted

The moment I seen that scoop I knew it was meant for a top mount vr4

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Barnes
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1007012 posted 07/22/11 09:59 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
A fair number of the people questioning and/or objecting aren't just naysayers from the peanut gallery. They legitimately want to help with your project, and have concerns about your choice. There is nothing wrong with that. The OP is relatively new and we have no idea of his technical capabilities or fabrication skills. We don't know if he is aware of what he is facing. Also, some things work, some don't. Many folks here know what does and does not work. Other things are just way harder for no good reason. We bring these issues up so that at least people can have an informed decision.

I'm still convinced this isn't a great idea. I think you are going to make a lot of work for yourself with no guarantee of results. Airflow to an FMIC is very straight forward in the front, and very odd under the hood. You have to start considering pressure differentials and where air wants to go, and where it needs to go. I'm fairly confident that in your design you will be pushing hot air through the FMIC, and potentially not much.

Also, the idea of very short IC pipe runs has been covered many times. The general consensus is that it doesn't make enough difference to justify causing yourself any hassle. That being said, there has been no empirical evidence either way. It would be pretty cool if you actually took pressure/temperature measurements.



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rdomeck
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1007018 posted 07/22/11 10:15 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post      
Justin, That's a good thought. I will look for one of those hoods around town.... If not this is something similar to what I had in mind to make! Also thanks for the recommendation on the book. I will order it tomorrow. You can never have enough knowledge.





So my intercooler measure 11"X15"....165 square inches. The factory one is 49 square inches....So I'm more than 3 times the factory cooler size and about an 1/8 the overall piping!



EVO III 16G, manifold and O2 housing, 3" exhaust, Evo 9 IC, 3" GM MAF, GM IAT, GM MAP, LC1 wideband, V3 Full, RC 750's, Aeromotive 340 fuel pump, Adj. FPR. Stock internals. Baer front brakes, Evo 9 Ohlin's.

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GSX_TC
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Galant VR-4 org Post #: 1007020 posted 07/22/11 10:19 PM     Remind Me!  Send Private Message   Edit Post   
Quoting Beaner:

SteveW, if he is a troll, you are a shitty grammar cop.

Quoting mistaVR4:

also, please work on your grammer, that seems to be very important on this site, you missed a period on the quote listed above....



Grammar is spelled with an A.
You incorrectly use 2 comma splices.
Your run-on sentence was ended with an incorrect ellipsis.

I won't even bother with the top half of your equally contributing post.




Lmao!!! what an idiot man. Maybe instead of bitching about peoples opinions he should go learn how to spell shit.



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Edited by GSX_TC (07/22/11 10:23 PM)

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