EfiniX
(Member ++)
09/09/14 12:21 PM
Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

Evan is knocking up a PoC heat shroud for the FP manifold. I thought it might be fun to take some temps from my current setup to compare to the finished product. Currently, I've got titanium cloth around my FP mani, and reflective heat tape on my IC piping as it goes over the top of the manifold.

Temp gauge tops out around 666F (which is oddly evil and specific).

Before:

click

After:

click

Forgive the ticking. It's not an exhaust leak or lifters. I have my license plate on a hinge so it swings up at-speed and allows more airflow to the intercooler. That hinge makes a bit of noise while idling.


G
(JDM Unit)
09/09/14 05:28 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. Before/after under hood temps.

So your intake mani was hotter than your jpipe. Do you have one of those plastic spacers installed?

GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
09/09/14 06:21 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. Before/after under hood temps.

The problem with your test is that the infrared thermometer is reading surface temp of whatever material it's pointed at. So, you'll have a good idea how the bare components (your intake manifold, throttle body elbow, etc.) will benefit from being shielded the FP mani...which will be a good indicator of how much heat soak is reduced by the addition of a heat shield.

What you won't know is if the J-pipe benefited, because you're not actually getting the temp reading of the actual pipe. You're just getting the temp of the insulation it's wrapped with. You should expose a small section of the bare pipe like you did the FP mani so you can get an accurate surface temp reading on the J-pipe.

Quoting G :

So your intake mani was hotter than your jpipe.



I doubt it, due to the reasons I stated above. The readings are comparing the bare intake manifold temp to the temp of the insulation on the J-pipe. Not an accurate comparison IMO.

I appreciate EfiniX taking the time to do this. I'm dealing with some of these issues myself, and would love to see some real world numbers/improvements. Could Evan grace us with some pics of the heat shield he's fabricating? I had a hell of a time fabbing one up myself, and feel like it was only a marginal improvement if at all. I'm interested in the details here.


G
(JDM Unit)
09/09/14 07:16 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. Before/after under hood temps.

The heat shield needs to be made from an aluminum alloy not steel. Otherwise it just turns in to a big bbq grill.

GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
09/09/14 07:26 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. Before/after under hood temps.

I don't know that I've ever seen a heat shield made of Aluminum or Aluminum alloy. The JMF piece is steel.

The main thing any heat shield will do is block some of the direct radiant heat, especially being so close to the radiator.


G
(JDM Unit)
09/09/14 08:03 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. Before/after under hood temps.

What's your stock unit made from? What are 99% of all OE units made from across the board from any car manufacturer?

GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
09/09/14 08:12 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. Before/after under hood temps.

I don't know what the stock unit is made of. I know it's not made of aluminum though, because aluminum doesn't rust.

slugsgomoo
(god hates stupid people)
09/09/14 08:23 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. Before/after under hood temps.

Stock is definitely steel lol

EHmotorsports
(Capt Fabbin Stabbin)
09/09/14 09:12 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. Before/after under hood temps.

Quoting G:

What's your stock unit made from? What are 99% of all OE units made from across the board from any car manufacturer?




G the heat shields on most production cars are made of steel when it surrounds the manifold. Aluminum is used on the bodywork and exhaust surrounds due to it's quick heat dissipation to remove unwanted heat from the bodywork and wiring,hoses and lines that may be close.


G
(JDM Unit)
09/09/14 10:16 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. Before/after under hood temps.

I didn't say aluminum, I said aluminum alloy. Not pure aluminum that doesn't rust. I would like to find this aluminum alloy in bulk:





Most of the heat shields i've seen for our cars are not an aluminum alloy. They are stove tops literally.


EHmotorsports
(Capt Fabbin Stabbin)
09/09/14 10:49 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. Before/after under hood temps.

As you can see they are around the body. From the factory up to at least 2012 most manifold shields are made out of a coated steel. Also those "aluminum" nuts are not aluminum or an alloy of.
The top picture is of an r50-r56 Mini Cooper of witch I worked on for the last 7 years.
The problem with using aluminum or an alloy of, on a manifold is you will need to add in something that will reflect the heat back. So a reflective barrer will need to be attached to the underside to keep the heat in. If you use a straight aluminum or an alloy without, the radiant heat will transmit through the shield and provide minimal results.
I have made many shields out of that material for surrounding components. The material will eventually degrade around a manifold as I have tried that also because it is a coated aluminum material.
And you can find that material in bulk of you want to spend 80 for a 12"x14" section.


EHmotorsports
(Capt Fabbin Stabbin)
09/09/14 11:03 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. Before/after under hood temps.

Anyway I should have time to start on making a template Thursday and start fabricating a prototype by next week.

GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
09/10/14 08:11 AM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. Before/after under hood temps.

Sweet, Evan. Looking forward to see what you come up with!

JNR
(5 star (English Professor) member Has extensive pop up picture book collection)
09/10/14 01:09 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. Before/after under hood temps.

Usually the metal part serves more as cladding and you want an actual insulating material in-between, to be effective....closer, the better...idea is to retain heat, not so much dissipate (won't go far or work without airflow) it when we're talking exhaust manifolds. Unless of course you're talking "personnel protection", so to speak, then these plate shields that have an airgap would do its job like that.

EfiniX
(Member ++)
09/10/14 01:31 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. Before/after under hood temps.

Quoting GSTwithPSI:

The problem with your test is that the infrared thermometer is reading surface temp of whatever material it's pointed at. So, you'll have a good idea how the bare components (your intake manifold, throttle body elbow, etc.) will benefit from being shielded the FP mani...which will be a good indicator of how much heat soak is reduced by the addition of a heat shield.




Yeah, this wasn't meant to be empirical or anything. I wanted to check surface temps on everything after a brisk drive. If they drop, then I can infer the shield is doing its job, regardless of what my intake temps might actually be.


EfiniX
(Member ++)
09/10/14 01:33 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. Before/after under hood temps.

Quoting EHmotorsports:

Anyway I should have time to start on making a template Thursday and start fabricating a prototype by next week.




Yay! tell me when to drive back out with your bottle of Sage!


EfiniX
(Member ++)
10/08/14 02:08 AM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

And bump for the new content.

GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
10/08/14 12:01 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

Looks good! Any pictures of the heat shield off the car? And, how does it attach to the manifold?

prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
10/08/14 01:25 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

You know, as discussed in other thread, that using couplers on your hot side pipe is the worst thing in the world to do...

EfiniX
(Member ++)
10/08/14 07:53 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

I'll pass your concerns on to ETS

coyotes
(Hipster VR4)
10/08/14 08:16 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

This thread sucks and should be restarted with better info on Evan's awesome manifold shield on its own! who cares about temps, we wanna see that blang blang heat shield

EfiniX
(Member ++)
10/08/14 09:27 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)





Barnes
(Firechicken)
10/09/14 09:50 AM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. Before/after under hood temps.

Quoting G:

The heat shield needs to be made from an aluminum alloy not steel. Otherwise it just turns in to a big bbq grill.




Why do you say that? From my understanding of radiative heat transfer and heat shields the opposite would be true. Steel has a lower thermal conductivity and thus higher resistance to heat transfer.


GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
10/09/14 10:05 AM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

Quoting Barnes:

Quoting G:

The heat shield needs to be made from an aluminum alloy not steel. Otherwise it just turns in to a big bbq grill.




Why do you say that? From my understanding of radiative heat transfer and heat shields the opposite would be true. Steel has a lower thermal conductivity and thus higher resistance to heat transfer.




Why, you ask Jon? Because G constantly talks out of his ass and tries to pass it as fact. Just a typical G post.

On the manifold; Evan's looks wayyyy better than the one I made. I had issues making a shield that covered the manifold, yet still cleared my J-pipe, radiator and driver side cooling fan. In the end, the only way I could fit mine was to remove the driver side cooling fan. This was mostly due to the angle the heat shield sat at, which made it protrude into the space that would normally be taken up by the fan.

The biggest issue I had was attaching the heat shield, which ended up being via a bracket that utilized the 2 center exhaust manifold studs, and also a bolt near the bottom that threaded into the turbine housing. It worked well, but I wish there was a much better solution. That's why I'm curious how Evan mounted the shield he fabbed up.

I ended up removing the heat shield I made in favor of running a secondary slim fan on the driver side of the radiator. I still suffer from some heat soak at low and idle speeds, but have been able to increase airflow across the radiator area enough to keep the car running at manageable temperatures, even at low speeds. I would like to install a heat shield again, I just haven't wanted to mess with fabricating another one from scratch.

EfiniX, if you could post up some more pictures of the construction of Evan's heat shield, that would be awesome. It appears from your video it helped reduce temps for you a great deal. Thanks for updating us!

I apologize in advance if I'm whoring up your thread, but I wanted to post this up for comparison. I'm looking for a better way to make a new heat shield for my own car. I posted this in another thread, but here's the heat shield I fabbed up. Of note, my shield sits at an angle, whereas Evan's appears to sit more even with the radiator. I think that's the way I need to go next time.





Fastener bar attached:




Heat shield mocked up:






Finished product:





prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
10/09/14 10:17 AM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

Not bad Brett, not bad. I like it painted black. Keeps the low key look.

GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
10/09/14 10:28 AM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

Thanks, Ryan

If my welds looked as good as Evan's, I would have polished it. When I had 1813, I really liked how the polished JMF piece looked on the stock mani. Gotta have that bling bling, bro.


JNR
(5 star (English Professor) member Has extensive pop up picture book collection)
10/09/14 11:10 AM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

Steel may take longer to heat up but it will also take longer to cool down (transfer heat provided there is airflow). The idea on a turbo manifold is to retain heat so I could see where a steel cover could work better BUT that is if there is an insulator in between or else its just a cover....sure it will work better than nothing but its not effective for the purpose of keeping heat in.

EfiniX
(Member ++)
10/09/14 11:20 AM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

Well the manifold under the shield is wrapped in titanium exhaust fabric whatever stuff.

GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
10/09/14 11:37 AM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

Quoting JNR:

Steel may take longer to heat up but it will also take longer to cool down (transfer heat provided there is airflow). The idea on a turbo manifold is to retain heat so I could see where a steel cover could work better BUT that is if there is an insulator in between or else its just a cover....sure it will work better than nothing but its not effective for the purpose of keeping heat in.




The heat shields that came factory on our cars weren't meant to act as heat sinks, they are made to reflect radiant heat.

I think we are all thinking too much into this. I'd be willing to bet the heat transfer properties of the material being used to construct the heat shield has very little to do with how the factory designed the stock component. I guarantee the two foremost factors Mitsubishi gave a shit about were cost, and durability. Aluminum, or any aluminum alloy doesn't fit that bill, hence the cheap piece of stamped mystery metal (not aluminum) we got from the factory.

If you want to fab up some high-speed aluminum or aluminum alloy heat shield because it has superior heat transfer properties, go ahead. The gains you actually see in the real world from such a venture will be negligible, if any at all.


EfiniX
(Member ++)
10/09/14 12:23 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

From conversations with Evan, it would seem as though he's just looking to provide a quality, less-expensive alternative to the Galant and DSM community. He's a really nice, really talented guy, and he genuinely enjoys this sort of work. I've got one of his short-shifters in my car and it cost half of what any other commercial product would have run. 4 months in and it's still the nicest shifter I've ever had in a car (well tied with my FD RX-7 shifter). His next project is to make a heat shield for the alternator. He's also talking about designing a template for JDM bumpers and other bits so that there a solid, aftermarket option that keeps the stock look. He never talks about how much money he can make, just about how he thinks people will find his products helpful.

So like all aftermarket parts, it comes down to what you are trying to accomplish and personal taste. If the shield he makes isn't for you, then it isn't for you. For me, it was just what I was looking for!


prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
10/09/14 02:09 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

I'm in for an alternator heat shield that works with a EVO 3 housing and downpipe. Mine looks like poo thrown at a orange wall.

I think he could sell one to almost every dsm guy out there.


EHmotorsports
(Capt Fabbin Stabbin)
10/09/14 07:06 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

hey thanks guys for the info,compliments and constructive criticism. I appreciate it all.

Brett it was a pain but I couldn't find a better solution to the upper mount than this.





heres a better look on my car before drilling the mounting holes.










and new material that im playing with. I over cooked the welds but after I refine my tig welding it should come out nice.




prove_it
(my racist jokes aren't actually funny)
10/09/14 07:11 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

Have you tried this on an actual FP manifold? It looks like it would clear, but if the shield is really close to the tall runner (#1 I think) it might rattle.

I like how this helps shield the PS pump too. Should work great. I'd like to see it extend down farther on the O2 housing, but I'm sure it wouldn't fit all the different housings out there.


GSTwithPSI
(A hole)
10/09/14 07:19 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

That's an awesome piece, Evan. I like your mounting solution. It looks like you are using pop rivets to hold it in place? My only critique would be to weld some type of nut to the underside of the manifold bracket, so you can remove the heat shield without drilling out the pop rivets.

Overall, looks like a really nice piece. You fabrication skillz are much better than mine. I'm not sure if you are thinking about producing these, but if so, what are you thinking along the lines of pricing?

Very, very nice work, dude. Thanks for sharing


Quoting prove_it:

Have you tried this on an actual FP manifold?



Lol. Do you even read, bro? Yeah, EfiniX's car has a FP manifold on it. That's what this whole thread is about. You needz to quit smoking that stuff!


EHmotorsports
(Capt Fabbin Stabbin)
10/09/14 08:29 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

yeah I didn't have pics of the bracket after I installed thread certs but it has threaded inserts now. im also using domed SS alen head bolts.

EfiniX
(Member ++)
10/09/14 08:46 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

If you like, we can pop the shelf off my rig tomorrow and take photos. I have an FO manifold.

Barnes
(Firechicken)
10/09/14 09:34 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

Quoting GSTwithPSI:

Why, you ask Jon? Because G constantly talks out of his ass and tries to pass it as fact. Just a typical G post.




Haha, very nice. I was trying to be nice and let him back up his position as opposed to directly saying he is wrong. I'm trying to be a bit nicer about things these days.

I do think in one of your most recent posts you hit he nail on the head. How the factory did the heat shield probably has very little to do with criteria we concern ourselves with. Being that the heat shield was an engineered part for a mass produced, street legal, warranty having, DOT conforming car, the requirements are WAY different than what we might expect.

As for the heat shield discussed here, it looks like it will do its job nicely. Just keep in mind a few things: thinner metal is okay as long as it doesn't fail mechanically due to vibration/thermal expansion/fatigue. Thicker metal doesn't really gain you anything as far as reducing heat transfer. As long as it is between the manifold and the thing you want to protect, it will reduce radiative heat transfer. But certainly the more form fitting you make it, the more it keeps airflow off the manifold which further reduces heat transfer.

Also, if it isn't a pain, polish the INSIDE of the heat shield. Polishing both the outside and the inside of the heat shield will reduce heat transfer due to the lower emissivity of a polished surface.


EfiniX
(Member ++)
10/09/14 10:30 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

Rather then polish the inside of my shield, we'll be putting reflective exhaust tape on it tomorrow. Should achieve the same or similar effect.

coyotes
(Hipster VR4)
10/10/14 01:28 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

Looks great, nicely done Evan. I bet a blanket would fit nicely under it to complete the idea and have a nice clean finished look. I feel like it needs a logo or something on top though.

JNR
(5 star (English Professor) member Has extensive pop up picture book collection)
10/10/14 04:24 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

Not into logos on my stuff but depending how thick it is a small ball mill design may look good or some sort of texture treatment, etc....like polished ss myself but have enough of that so a contrast would be nice but in a way that itd still stand out.

curtis
(Space Blanket from NASA plumbed into the attic)
11/04/14 02:21 AM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

Not pooping on anyone's design just bringing some tech to the thread plus helping G out.

Well about a decade and a half ago I pull the exhaust from my buddies new f250 for larger upgrade one. Ford had a multi layer shield on the downpipe I thought it was cool and held on to it. Years later I cut it up added header wrap pieces inside and cut and shaped and sewed it together with stainless lock wire. I believe KTM bought it for his along with my ported 2G manifold about 07 I guess. Not sure where to buy the stuff in bulk but these people can build you whatever that is if you can speak French. Boostx sent me some goodies from the PRI show a couple years ago and there was a booklet in the stuff.

Maybe someone can organize a group buy but this company is high end aerospace and build parts and pieces for gov agencies like NASA and F1 and rally teams that don't live with a budget

click me


Edit started looking here's another place click me


curtis
(Space Blanket from NASA plumbed into the attic)
11/04/14 02:29 AM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

One more this shit looks badass

EHmotorsports
(Capt Fabbin Stabbin)
11/04/14 09:21 PM
Re: Custom EH Motorsports FP Racing manifold shroud. (UPDATED)

that material works great. 2002-2006 MINI's use it everywhere under the car. any partouts I always try to snag it so I don't have to pay the insane prices the aftermarket wants. on my car I will be wrapping my manifold with that and using my shield.


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