**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 08:07 PM
Intake Manifold Shootout

http://nabr.jayntguru.com/shootout

Can't decide what aftermarket intake manifold to buy? Stop going on hearsay and tooners talk and start using real information. RMDSM is doing an intake manifold shootout this weekend to gather some real data. This was my idea and Hal (Hal on this board) and Dave Landry as well as other RMDSM and NABR members have come together to make it happen. Please contribute if you can as we are making all the data publicly available to the DSM community and are funding it out of our own pockets. Lots of dyno data, measurements, volumes and runner lengths will be available for you to make an *educated* decision.

That's all for now. Stay tuned for results. [Smile]

[ 05-07-2004, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Hertz ]


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 08:09 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Yea, that test is great... thanks to all involved and I can't wait to see the results.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 08:22 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Cant wait.......

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 08:25 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Awsome. Put me down for a couple bucks.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 08:28 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

dont forget mine [Razz]

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 08:29 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Send all money to Dave in that link provided. Jon I need to get your manifold to Hal as soon as I can.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 08:54 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Great idea.

Can we get a stock cyclone /w non-ecu controlled runner actuator in the field?


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 08:55 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

chris you going to use your magnus too?

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 09:01 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

I will sending money tonight. I would like to see a Cyclone jsut to see one, But Im not gonna hold my breath either.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 09:04 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

i'm supplying the magnus and $100 plus I'll be wrenching. The session is closed to the public because we will be VERY busy with all the manifolds we have.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 09:30 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Money sent. On the other hand I hate moving threads.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 10:33 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

I'd really like to see a Cyclone tested. Run it with runners held open and run it with runners held closed. Then it would be easy enough to lay the two dyno graphs on top of each other to see what it would look like if the runners were switched open at the optimal point.

Also, this is less testing and more presenting, but it would be nice to see 'as tested' weights for each of the manifolds.

Good luck.

Mark


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 10:38 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

I will try to remember the scale to get rough weights. I believe a cyclone is in the works but no promises.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 10:55 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Excellent, thank you. [Applause]

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 11:25 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Big thing here is to make a good notes of the mods.

Ricer mentality is that if one intake worked best on one car it will work best on theirs, WRONG!!

Don't be drug into that pit people.

How about a stock motor with a stock turbo and say some usualy bolt-ons like the guy down the street has (not a real guy, just hypothetical). Then another with a few more mods and so on and so on. That way you get a good idea of what each intake will do at a given level and if it is worth it for you.

Street driving impression is also an imprtant factor, albiet a subjective one. But none the less, street manners and driveablity are very important factors to consider. Remember dynos only tell part of the story.

Still, hopefully some good usable data can come from this.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/29/04 11:30 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Good info wil come from this, And I know the truth is out there as far as this test goes. But on somthing lke this you cant say lest test them on 10 diffrent cars. I admit the test car is fairley extreme but its at the point of needing one. Most 16g guys dont need or want one. i will trust their judgement and data to choose whats gonna be right for me.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 08:58 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

We'd love to do other cars. In fact we were going to test my galant as well, 20g, stock motor but there is just not enough time and money. Remember I *personally* will be swapping manifolds on a hot car all day just to get through the ones we got! If we had to do it twice on different cars we'd never finish.

So we picked the best compromise. This is not a shop car but a well built enthusiast car that your average person could build. No super secret parts or impossible to do stuff. I think you'll get good data but about top end and low end mainifold performance. Dynos aren't the whole story but they are the most objective way to gather good data.


blacksheep
(Baraqsheep)
03/30/04 10:10 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

I hope the Forrester wins [Big Grin]

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 10:47 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

The people who take the results as gospel are the same buyers that change their turbo 7 times before they run low 12s, and most likely one of those was a Mutt. I think this is a great test, and appreciate the amount of work it will take to pull it off. If I had to predict the test will show what has been known forever and that there is no perfect manifold, what one gains in xxx area it will lose in yyy area, and this will be a good judge of which one you want based on your needs.

Matticus
(Senior Member)
03/30/04 10:55 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

I respect the amount of time, effort, money going into this project. I can imagine alot of burned forearms, fingers, and hands after the day is finished. Donation sent. Good Luck with the testing.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 12:53 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

I may be testing one for jonvr4.. [Wink]

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 01:32 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

I've got a cyclone intake you can use if you need/want it, Chris. Let me know.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 01:56 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

I have to talk to Dave tonight and I'll check on teh cyclone status. I *thought* we had one already but i'm not sure.

autobahntom
(Senior Member)
03/30/04 02:58 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Money sent also. I have a cyclone (NON-RS one) that could be used. Although 'in transit time' would cut it close.
Thanks in advance for the long day ahead. Make sure to have several pair of Mechanix gloves; that will help with not getting burns.
Tom


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 03:01 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Thanks for all the contributions. Any out of state manifolds would cut it close but I think we're set anyway.

And my fiancee has me set on gloves to protect the old hands [Smile]


autobahntom
(Senior Member)
03/30/04 03:24 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Not to take this off topic too far, but if you don't have a set of GearWrench brand gear wrenches, you SHOULD get one. Get the reversable offset ones. I have a set of GearWrench brand, and two sets of BluePoint (Snap-On) and the GearWrench ones are not as bulky and fit into smaller areas. They making changing an intake sooooo easy. Can reach all the bolts no problem also. It does help that my a/c is off (I would recommend that for the day-just remove the compressor) . It took about five minutes to take the stock 1g intake manifold off (which did not go back on-a Magnus took it's place).
Tom


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 03:29 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Yes that's an excellent point. I have the gear wrenches for the underside bolts. They are a life saver! I did it the first time without and I never want to be without them again. The car being tested already has a aftermarket manifold on it so "most" of the normal prep work is done (coil, power transistor, rail, wiring, etc).

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 03:43 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Are you guys talkin about ratcheting wrenches?

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 03:48 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

I sent a small donation last night, thanks again.
quote:
Originally posted by blacksheep:
I hope the Forrester wins [Big Grin]

LOL, Go Magnus!

autobahntom
(Senior Member)
03/30/04 03:48 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

No ratcheting wrenches are from years ago, very big and cumbersome to work with. The GearWrench's are about the size of a regular wrench. Sears sells them, you can probably find a pic of them on their website.
These wrenches are really a Godsend for intake manifolds and two of the center bolts on the exhaust manifold (on our cars).
Tom


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/30/04 06:02 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

If I remember correctly, the GearWrench 8-wrench set is on sale this week for $40 or so--that's a steal! [Eek!] (Reg. price is only $50, which isn't bad either)

My only two gripes about them is the lip that keeps the bolt head or nut from passing through can either be a blessing or a curse (usually the latter), and the smaller sizes tend to "lock up" under relatively low torque loads--easily fixed by tapping the wrench against a hard surface, but annoying.

In fact, that brings up a tip for those that own them: make sure you use the open end to "crack" the bolt/nut loose first.

I'm going to assume you don't need my Cyclone unless you call me, Chris. [Smile] I would have offered my FRH, but that was one of the first manifolds you had.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/31/04 08:20 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

I do so hope that they get to test with a cyclone intake. My buddy use's one and i'm curious what the difference is from the stock 1g [Smile]

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/31/04 09:10 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

quote:
Originally posted by autobahntom:
No ratcheting wrenches are from years ago, very big and cumbersome to work with. The GearWrench's are about the size of a regular wrench. Sears sells them, you can probably find a pic of them on their website.
These wrenches are really a Godsend for intake manifolds and two of the center bolts on the exhaust manifold (on our cars).
Tom

These are what I meant by ratcheting wrenches, which I think you're also talking about since they're the same size as normal ones:
 -

If so I have some snap-on blue point ratcheting wrenches in 12mm and 14mm.. work great!


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/31/04 09:42 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Yep, those were revolutionized by Gear Wrench, which came out a couple years back. Now everyone and their brother has their own version out. I have a set of the original ones that are flat and you have to flip over to go the opposite direction. Eventually, I'll get a set of the reversible ones, but it'll be to support, not replace the original set.

To be on topic, are you guys going to test a stock manifold with a phenolic spacer? I doubt it but I was just curious if that was on the agenda.

Mark


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
03/31/04 10:08 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

I believe we're only doing the phenolic spacer on the forrester.

number3
(Senior Member)
04/01/04 05:12 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

What size TB?

number3
(Senior Member)
04/01/04 05:16 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

quote:
Originally posted by Kibo:

My only two gripes about them is the lip that keeps the bolt head or nut from passing through can either be a blessing or a curse (usually the latter), and the smaller sizes tend to "lock up" under relatively low torque loads--easily fixed by tapping the wrench against a hard surface, but annoying.

In fact, that brings up a tip for those that own them: make sure you use the open end to "crack" the bolt/nut loose first.


There are different models. I own 5-6 different sets of gearwrenches. You don't have to deal with the lip on all of them or at least you didn't. I bought my first set from the S&K tool man back in 99 I think.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/01/04 08:18 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

stock 1g throttle body for all tests.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/01/04 08:20 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Can we make this a sticky?

Gabor
(Decal Specialist!)
04/01/04 10:11 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

I have two sets, the reversible and the flat ones.
Both sets have their own uses and they are great.
I always use the closed end to break stuff loose because I'm affraid if I use the open end, it might strip the bolt. Broke two of them with an extension but it was replaced by mailing them back to the manufacturer. The best place to buy it from is www.thetoolwarehouse.net
These guys are great, have quality tools, great to deal with and have better prices than Ebay. I'm going to get the stubby and the flex set soon.

Sorry for the offtopic, but you really need these tools for a job like that.

Go Forrester go.

Gabor
692/1000


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/01/04 01:13 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

quote:
Originally posted by number3:
There are different models. I own 5-6 different sets of gearwrenches. You don't have to deal with the lip on all of them or at least you didn't. I bought my first set from the S&K tool man back in 99 I think.

I've seen those as well (my friend has a set), but I searched high and low and couldn't find any reversible GearWrenches without the lip. It must have been only on the earlier sets. [Frown]

Go Forrester! [Wink]


curtis
(Space Blanket from NASA plumbed into the attic)
04/02/04 10:04 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Just don't put on the bottom bolts during all the swaps. There a pita and would save a bunch of time by not putting them on the stock and cyclone intakes. Also the phenolic spacer will give mixed results it should move the power band a few hundred rpm and help the hp because of the cooling effect that it helps with. Best of luck with all the wrenching.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/02/04 10:46 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

we aren't testing phenolic spacers, only using the forrester one as Dale requested it be used since that's part of the engineering design.

I'll see about the bottom bolts and make sure it doesn't leak like that. It's pretty easy to get to most of the bottom bolts except on a stock setup.

Edit: BTW the forrester is on the car now in preparation since it's the biggest PITA so it will be first up tomorrow. Erik I do need that cyclone now so I hope you got my message [Wink]


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/02/04 07:35 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Looks like we're ready to go for tomorrow. My magnus is off the car and cleaned up, Dave's car is cleaned and ready, and I'm picking up the cyclone from Erik A. tonight. Thanks to everyone who sent donations. We'll be starting 10 am (MST) and I believe the forrester is up first. Should be an interesting day!

For the locals, remember this is closed to the public. Unless you've worked it out with Dave to be there, please stay home. This is in *no* way meant to offend or be exclusive. Its just going to be very very crazy and we aren't even unstrapping the car between runs to try and get done in a reasonable amount of time. We'll have data, info, pictures, video, the works. [Big Grin]


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/04/04 11:49 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Results? [Big Grin]

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/04/04 01:53 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

I just got back home, I was very tired last night from 8 hours of wrenching on intake manifolds so we stayed at the inlaws place near the dyno. The results are interesting. I can't say anything until we match all the dyno, wideband and logs together but we'll try to get them out ASAP.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/04/04 07:06 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

I'm compiling the data and will probably finish it Monday evening.

As a way of saying thanks to those that made contributions, we will release the results to them first. We will then make the information available to everyone else two days later.

Hal


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/06/04 07:57 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Just a follow up.

Public release will be Thursday @ 9:00 am MST


GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
04/06/04 10:07 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Very nice. Thanks.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/08/04 02:25 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Do we have a link yet? Not nagging, just really curious.

Mark


autobahntom
(Senior Member)
04/08/04 02:30 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

The link is the information link at the beginning of this thread. However, the last time I checked, it was down for some reason.
Tom


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/08/04 02:41 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Actually it got moved to-> http://nabr.jayntguru.com/shootout

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/08/04 02:56 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Dam it I want some HP comparisons I dont care if the temperature was differient on each run or not, it was all done on the same car. It will still give us a better idea of what's going on. All these airflow charts dont translate into much, Chris didin't you do a little analyzing to figure out some more real world data? Where are the dyno charts that show HP and RPM??

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/08/04 03:26 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Horse power levels from this test mean nothing unless the state of tune is altered to gain the best possible performance from each manifold.

Like wise, the rpm range used in testing must cover the optimum range for each manifold.

This test wasn't intended to show top power.

Like the results say, if you want max power then buy a BJ's or Magnus, twist the motor to 9500, and be done with it.

The airflow charts tell you a lot. There is even a little bit of interpretation done to help you understand what you are seeing.

Hal


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/08/04 03:31 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Any links to other discussion threads concerning this? I'm interested in seeing some other interpretations.

On this old computer at work with poor resolution, it looks to me like the Venom trounces those two in the tested RPM range. And that you've finally proved that a 1g intake is good enough for 99% of DSMers.

Mark


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/08/04 03:52 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Wow thanks guys!! These results are really superb.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/08/04 03:54 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

you guys did a extreamly thourgh job on data coralation and alowing us to determin what suits our individual needs. WAY TO GO... [Big Grin]

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/08/04 04:32 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

I'll comment here later but Hal said most of it. Read all the data for a while and think about it first.

sleepyvr4
(I Hate Kitty Cats)
04/08/04 04:59 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

why isn't the forrester compared w/ the others?

GVR-4
(Creative Name Huh?)
04/08/04 10:37 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Awesome job, guys! [Wink]

14bCrazy
(turdpolisher)
04/09/04 08:52 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

This test to me shows that the stock intake is fine for most people like Mark said. I would say that for the extra HP that the others will give you might not be worth the extra money. In a race car yes but for the street I would have to say No. I like mid range power on the street and I looks like you would lose some with the aftermarket intakes. Thanks for doing this.

RayH
(Senior Member)
04/09/04 10:27 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Nice test but I was really looking forward to the Cyclone results...

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/09/04 10:38 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

sorry we didn't have time to make the gaskets/assembly it. [Frown] Sort of a last minute miscommunication. We were there 8 hours just with the ones we had.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/09/04 03:53 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

After getting home and d/ling the dyno run viewer and doing some comparisons, I still think the Venom looks like the hands down winner. It doesn't drop in power any earlier than the Magnus or the BJ and it makes quite a bit more power everywhere else in the rev band. I know we're looking at airflow curves and trying to guess what will happen higher up, but I don't think the venom curve is peaking earlier, its simply better...

Look at the blue line in relation to the red line for each graph.

Mark


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/10/04 03:56 AM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Why is it that the stock manifold seems to outflow aftermarket ones in the midrange?

Is the stock manifold actually the best POSSIBLE manifold available for midrange power? Well, at least out of all tested?


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/10/04 12:41 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

i think it's very likely that the stocker rules all in midrange power.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/10/04 05:55 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

OEM manifolds usually provide better midrange performance.

That is, after all, where the car will spend most of it's life.

So, that is typically what car makers focus on.

Hal


curtis
(Space Blanket from NASA plumbed into the attic)
04/10/04 07:50 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

quote:
Originally posted by 92GVR4#333:
you guys did a extreamly thourgh job on data coralation and alowing us to determin what suits our individual needs. WAY TO GO... [Big Grin]

I agree nice job. Maybe me and Pete will build one for testing like we talked about if I ever get the welder wiresd and find a few extra days. Pete keep your mouth shut about design consideration [Big Grin] ......

blacksheep
(Baraqsheep)
04/12/04 02:16 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

In the last chart with all of the manifolds, the forrester is missing. Any reason?

Thanks!


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/12/04 07:41 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

can we assume a stock manifold with the Extrude Hone process will yield even better midrange potential?

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/12/04 08:02 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

not a word from me --I do have quite a bit of Carbon fiber cloth to play with as well. I still really want to do that mani.

Larry Parker
(Rally Member)
04/19/04 11:23 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Short runners are no good! Lets see a long runner mani with the proper plenum and airhorns raised off the floor...!! [Idea]

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/19/04 02:52 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Parker:
Short runners are no good! Lets see a long runner mani with the proper plenum and airhorns raised off the floor...!! [Idea]

This was my first thought, what part does the construction (partacularly the inlet to the runners) play in the results you got.
I've never seen any pictures of the insides of any of these manifolds except the FRH one, which is a little like the stocker in that the entries are rounded, but still IMO not a great design.


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/23/04 02:55 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Another quick Q.

Aproximately what power output was this car making.
You say it was detuned a bit for the testing, but the setup it has is capible of making some pretty serious power.
I feel power output (max airflow) would have quite an effect on how each manifold performed, particularly with relation to RPM. ie cross over points could move up/down the rpm range quite a bit depending on airflow (=horsepower)


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/23/04 03:57 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

400 uncorrected HP at 5800 feet alititute

Gabor
(Decal Specialist!)
04/27/04 02:14 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

With which manifold? [Wink]

Gabor
692/1000


**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/27/04 02:22 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

Chris, Dave was only pushing 400WHP that day? Still a lot I know but he was pushing the same numbers with the FPRED you would think they would be a little higher with the FP3065.

**DONOTDELETE**
(Unregistered)
04/27/04 02:47 PM
Re: Intake Manifold Shootout

This was untuned at less boost Keith. But I'm not happy with the 3065 at this altitude. It's never going to make 600+ up here. Period.


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